The Law

[KBCid]

What you have here is the ultimate goal of Christ's commandments but not a working definition.. If you divorce yourself from G-d's commandments then you are divorcing yourself from the mechanics of love... Love has a face... I'm sorry for the path you have chosen.

YES YES YES G!!!!!

That is what we are both saying here. It is the 'mechanics' of how you do it that count. The ten commandments were 'some' of the mechanics that defined how we love. They were intented to be working definitions of how love functions. Love is an interaction between more than one intelligent being. It is a description of all the actions and thoughts that come from each party involved. This is why Christ defined that love was observed by keeping his commandments;

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Christ demands that you obey his commands in order to stay in his love.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

and as we can see Christs message is the same as the one originally given to the Jews in the older testament.

Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments

Deu 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul

Same God, same message, same demands, different method to alleviate the burden of the sin that occurs when you fail to do what is right and holy. Swiping the debit card to pay the price no longer works. Now you have to pay with actual love from the inside.

[Gman]

Thanks KBCid.. And I would even go as far as doing the Biblical festivals too... After all they were commanded also. And they are FUN! Ultimately I believe it brings unity to the body.. Not separation. Yeshua never wanted to bring separation to His people. G-d is a real party animal..

Perhaps I'll make a topic on that later...

[neo-x]

K,
That is the nightmare of "proof-texting".

[PaulSacramento]

Recall how in Numbers a man is stoned and killed because he broke the Sabbath and gathered wood?
Recall on how Jesus defended his apostles when they were accused of such themselves (breaking the sabbath) when they plucked wheat to eat?
Both were written in the Law as prohibited and punishable by death, but what did Christ say?
The sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath.
In short, he overruled a concrete Torah law and defended His followers that did the same, reminding the overly-legalistic pharisees that the Laws was made for Man, NOT that Man was made for the Law ie: Man has the power to decide which laws to follow and HOW, as Christ and His apostles did and as did those that came after them.

It's easy to point out the Laws that EVERYONE agrees are good and that we ALL agree everyone should follow, but what about the ones that are NOT Good?
Who decides what is to be followed and what is no loner applicable?

[cheezerrox]

Recall how in Numbers a man is stoned and killed because he broke the Sabbath and gathered wood?
Recall on how Jesus defended his apostles when they were accused of such themselves (breaking the sabbath) when they plucked wheat to eat?
Both were written in the Law as prohibited and punishable by death, but what did Christ say?
The sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath.
In short, he overruled a concrete Torah law and defended His followers that did the same, reminding the overly-legalistic pharisees that the Laws was made for Man, NOT that Man was made for the Law ie: Man has the power to decide which laws to follow and HOW, as Christ and His apostles did and as did those that came after them.

It's easy to point out the Laws that EVERYONE agrees are good and that we ALL agree everyone should follow, but what about the ones that are NOT Good?
Who decides what is to be followed and what is no loner applicable?

I would only point out that Yeshua's followers didn't break the commandment according to Torah itself, only according to the additional rabbinical ordinances contained in the Oral Torah, and even according to the Oral Torah the Pharisees' judgement could be argued. So, no law was overruled. At least not a law as contained in Scripture.
Also, while I concede many Messianics love to pick and choose which laws to follow, many Messianics, such as myself, find the criterion for which laws still apply is very simple; it's just which ones we can still apply. Obviously, sacrifice cannot still be performed. Even disregarding the theology behind it, regarding Messiah's work and ultimate sacrifice, there's no longer a Temple/Tabernacle, so it's impossible to be performed. When Israel was exiled to Babylon, they didn't stop following Torah simply because certain laws (the central statute of Torah in particular; sacrifice) was no longer able to be followed, so it doesn't matter if we're in the theocratic nation of Israel or not. On the other hand, observing the Sabbath, not divining, not eating swine, and not eating blood are all able to be followed, regardless of time or geography.
I'm addressing these points because I see them commonly used as arguments against Messianic theology, and I think many Messianics aren't helping themselves out by not clarifying our positions by answering these arguments.

[RickD]

cheezerrox wrote:
not eating swine,

So cheezy, you think it's a sin for believers to eat swine?

[cheezerrox]

So cheezy, you think it's a sin for believers to eat swine?

I figured this one would attract some attention. Kinda a touchy topic, especially with us Americans and our bacon .
Yes, I would say it's sin to eat swine, as it says in Torah (Leviticus 11:7).

[RickD]

So cheezy, you think it's a sin for believers to eat swine?

I figured this one would attract some attention. Kinda a touchy topic, especially with us Americans and our bacon .
Yes, I would say it's sin to eat swine, as it says in Torah (Leviticus 11:7).

Now, everyone take a good look at this answer.

cheezerrox wrote:
Yes, I would say it's sin to eat swine, as it says in Torah (Leviticus 11:7).

Does anyone else see what's wrong with this? Saying that the law wasn't given specifically to Israel, and that we as believers need to follow the Jewish Sabbath laws leads to this. We who eat bacon are sinning.

[RickD]

Acts 10:9-15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the [a]sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an [c]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the [e]air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, [f]kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything [g]unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider [h]unholy.”

Here piggy piggy. Here piggy piggy.

[cheezerrox]

Now, everyone take a good look at this answer.

cheezerrox wrote:
Yes, I would say it's sin to eat swine, as it says in Torah (Leviticus 11:7).

Does anyone else see what's wrong with this? Saying that the law wasn't given specifically to Israel, and that we as believers need to follow the Jewish Sabbath laws leads to this. We who eat bacon are sinning.

I can't tone down the message. It just comes down to if Torah applies still or not. If it does, eating swine, not keeping Shabbat, getting tattoos, and all things that the Torah defines as sin are sin. If it doesn't, then those things are not. But whether you agree or disagree, it all comes down to this.

Acts 10:9-15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the [a]sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an [c]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the [e]air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, [f]kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything [g]unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider [h]unholy.”

Here piggy piggy. Here piggy piggy.

I'd say to take that vision to be literally about food would be error, especially since Peter himself states in 10:28 that the vision taught him that G-d told him not to call any MAN unclean.

[RickD]

I can't tone down the message. It just comes down to if Torah applies still or not. If it does, eating swine, not keeping Shabbat, getting tattoos, and all things that the Torah defines as sin are sin. If it doesn't, then those things are not.

Cheezerrox, you can't see how this burden you are putting upon believers is a stumbling block? By saying that believers can't eat bacon, unbelievers who are reading this may throw away the gospel of Christ. So, not only are you placing a completely unnecessary burden on believers, you are creating a stumbling block for those who may come to Christ. I ask you in all seriousness to pray about what you're doing.

[cheezerrox]

Cheezerrox, you can't see how this burden you are putting upon believers is a stumbling block? By saying that believers can't eat bacon, unbelievers who are reading this may throw away the gospel of Christ. So, not only are you placing a completely unnecessary burden on believers, you are creating a stumbling block for those who may come to Christ. I ask you in all seriousness to pray about what you're doing.

I can understand how this could be a stumbling block. I also can understand how the cross can be a stumbling block (Galatians 5:11). When sharing the Gospel with people, I would follow the ruling of the apostles at the Jerusalem council as recorded in Acts 15 that believers need not become Jews to be saved or follow any laws to be saved, they only need to believe. And then when they accept the Messiah, and they join the believers, they learn how their new life should be lived through the reading of the Scriptures, specifically the Torah of Moses (verses 19-21). I do pray often that I not be mistaken in the message that I preach, and while I recognize that I'm a fallible man who could be wrong, I do believe I have the Scriptures' support on this issue, and I have to be true to them. I see Christians say this to Messianics often, and yet I very rarely, if ever, see a Christian say they will pray about their own understanding. Messianism is thriving, it's a big movement, and has been growing for decades. There's something to it, people are finding something in this movement that they're not in mainstream, traditional Christianity (not Christianity itself, just mainstream Christianity) right now. It's not just a few people who proof-text to be legalistic, it's a large amount of people who are saying that we've been interpreting Scripture wrongly. It's worth looking into, and talking to G-d about.

[RickD]

cheezerrox,
Isn't scripture pretty clear that as long as we give thanks to God for the food He has provided, then it's not a sin to eat pork? Unless "nothing is to be rejected" doesn't include pork?

1 Timothy 4:4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

[RickD]

cheezerrox wrote:
When sharing the Gospel with people, I would follow the ruling of the apostles at the Jerusalem council as recorded in Acts 15 that believers need not become Jews to be saved or follow any laws to be saved, they only need to believe.

But then once they are saved, you tell them that if they don't follow Jewish laws, they are sinning.


Galatians 2:14:14 But when I saw that they were not [l]straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

[cheezerrox]

cheezerrox,
Isn't scripture pretty clear that as long as we give thanks to God for the food He has provided, then it's not a sin to eat pork? Unless "nothing is to be rejected" doesn't include pork?

1 Timothy 4:4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

This is a good Scripture for this discussion, because I would actually say that this passage reinforces the position that kashrut (kosher dietary laws) was never done away with. What un-kosher food can be said to be sanctified by the Word of G-d?

But then once they are saved, you tell them that if they don't follow Jewish laws, they are sinning.


Galatians 2:14:14 But when I saw that they were not [l]straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

You continuously call Torah Jewish. When doing so, it's easy to make Messianics seem like the "Judaizers" of the New Testament, and seem as if they force people to become Jews to be accepted. The thing is, Torah isn't Jewish. It came from G-d. It was given to the Jewish people, but it itself is not Jewish. It was always meant to be bought to the other nations, just as Israel itself was to be a light to the nations.

As for that verse, the context reveals that what Peter was doing was not eating with Gentiles in favor of eating with Jews. There's nothing in Torah that says one can't eat or fellowship with Gentiles.