Jehovah witnesses

[RickD]

I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?

Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?

[PaulSacramento]

I think the NT rendering of the NWT is just as "okay" as the OT. I have never read an English rendering version of scripture translated perfectly!! Example: Jesus does not "return" to his father as the NIV states. Because the NWT chooses a different rendering of a word like "ho theos" and supplies Jehovah, is just fine. When Jesus is the subject, the NWT renders Jesus appropriately. The Greek word en is "in, by, with, through, etc." What the translator chooses to use is up to the translator. This is what is called "translator bias" Most versions supply to us translator bias in the English!! The KJV uses "en" all things created (en) by him.. meaning Jesus is creator. Most English versions render Col 1:16 "by" him. But it is interesting to see that not all versions use the same rendering. The ESV gives a real nice maybe confusing footnote. I use "in" him. As I do not believe Jesus is Yaweh. Yaweh alone created, not some silly "we" idea ref Isa 44:24 This means that I do not believe the son is the Father by proper name.

You are quite right to believe that the son is NOT the father, since NOWHERE does the bible say that and NO christian doctrine teaches that.
The Trinity, which you seem to not understand, says that Son and Father share the same NATURE, NOT the same person.
The JW" make the very same mistake in their misunderstanding of the Trinity AND their misunderstanding of Christ's nature.
The Jw's say that Jesus was the archangel Michael in his pre-incarnate form, that Jesus was the first created being.
This of course is wrong as per all the GOJ and all of Paul's writings and what the apostles believes.
The NWT screws up pretty much anything that has to do with teaching about Jesus nature AND even thr nature od Salvation.
And exampel is ROmans where Paul says that Jesus is LORD and that all those that call on the LORD's name ( Jesus) will be saved, here he echos Peter in Acts.
The JW's change that by inserting Jehovah instead of LORD because, in their view, Paul is quoting the prophet Joel.
WHich he indeed is BUT putting Jesus in the PLACE of Jehovah, making it clear that salvation is in Jesus' name first and foremost, in short, Paul is placing Jesus in the place of Jehovah.

[1stjohn0666]

I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?

Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?

Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!

[RickD]

I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?

Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?

Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!

John, until you believe in the one true Jesus, you are lost in your sins.
Jesus is God

[PaulSacramento]

IF Jesus is TRULY Son of God ie: "flesh of his flesh", then Jesus is God.
There is simply no way around it.
The issue for John and JW's is simply that, for them, God=The Father, period.
God is not the "name" or "title" of the Creator Being, no, for them God is the "name" of the Father of Jesus.

[1stjohn0666]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

[RickD]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

[Sam1995]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I guess if I'm going to be really simple, understanding the trinity is way beyond our understanding! It touches on God's multi-dimensional qualities which are nothing other than further proof of His massive power, because human intelligence will never understand it!

SB

[PaulSacramento]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I guess if I'm going to be really simple, understanding the trinity is way beyond our understanding! It touches on God's multi-dimensional qualities which are nothing other than further proof of His massive power, because human intelligence will never understand it!

SB

One of the reasons I am not a fan of the Trinity doctrine is because it is so badly worded that it causes more confusion than it solves.
IT is a doctrine of nature, NOT of personality or identity.
God is the name given to the "species" that is the divine creator of ALL, that species is spirit (immaterial) and not corpreal.
As such it can be anyway it wants to be.
What is begotten of that species is that species so, as such, the Son of God is God as the son of man is man.
God's HS is God because it is God's spirit.
The being we use the term "god" to is a being that is in perfect union with 3 distinct persons - Father ( the creator), son ( through who all was created), spirit ( By which all was created).
Now, remember that since God is spirit God can be ANY form God is, God has no body so a perfect union is not only possible but there is no reason to think that it can't be.

In it's simplest form, Jesus is God like we are human, it is His Nature. Jesus is NOT His Father and the Trinity makes that very clear.
As Paul stated: Jesus is the exact form of God and in Him the fullness of God dwells.
As Jesus stated: You see me, you see the Father.

[Sam1995]

Do you believe trinitarian doctrine to be true?

[PaulSacramento]

Do you believe trinitarian doctrine to be true?

I believe that The Father, Son and HS ALL share the same nature, yes.

[1stjohn0666]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I don't think Jude 1 is going to contradict Jude 4 for the sake of orthodoxy. I also "proof texted" 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus and Paul agree.
If Jude 4 said God, I would fully believe!! God the Father is clearly presented as Lord God in the Hebrew as Adonai Elohim!! Gen 2:4 is a nice example.

[B. W.]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I don't think Jude 1 is going to contradict Jude 4 for the sake of orthodoxy. I also "proof texted" 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus and Paul agree.
If Jude 4 said God, I would fully believe!! God the Father is clearly presented as Lord God in the Hebrew as Adonai Elohim!! Gen 2:4 is a nice example.

Quote below is from:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/po ... 2&p=129763

Next - On the Paired Hebrew pronoun Atah-hu

There is also the use of the paired Hebrew pronoun Atah-hu (You-He) in the bible as well. The word, Atah-hu is used nine times in the OT. Five of its uses are associated with HaElohim. And brings out the following truths in these verses:

2 Sa 7:28 "And now, O Lord YHWH, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaElohim, and Your words are true, and You have promised this goodness to Your servant.

2 Ki 19:15 Then Hezekiah prayed before YHWH, and said: "O YHWH Elohim of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaEohim, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

1Ch 17:26 And now, LORD, Atah-hu -You-He- are HaEohim, and have promised this goodness to Your servant.

2Ch 20:6 and said: "O YHWH Elohim of our fathers, are Atah-hu -You-He- not HaEohim in heaven, and do You not rule over all the kingdoms of the nations, and in Your hand is there not power and might, so that no one is able to withstand You?

Neh 9:6-7 Atah-hu -You-He - alone are the YHWH; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You. 7 " Atah-hu -You-He- are the YHWH HaElohim, Who chose Abram, And brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans, And gave him the name Abraham…

Psalms 44:3-4 For they did not gain possession of the land by their own sword, Nor did their own arm save them; But it was Your (the Father’s) right hand (preincarnate Jesus), Your arm (Holy Spirit), and the light of Your (the Father’s) Panim (Son and Holy Spirit), Because You (the Father) favored/loved them. 4 Atah-hu -You-He are my King, O Elohim; Command victories for Jacob.

Isa 37:16 "O YHWH of hosts, Elohim of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, Atah-hu -You-He are HaElohim, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

Jer 14:22 Are there any among the idols of the nations that can cause rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Are You not Atah-hu -You-He, O YHWH our Elohenu? Therefore we will wait for You, Since You have made all these.

The use of the rare paired pronouns, Atah-hu -You-He, are striking in implantations of the Truth of the Divine Trinity – One God in three persons of one essence / panim as the following CARM link expresses:

http://carm.org/trinity

Truly, none like God!

[PaulSacramento]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I don't think Jude 1 is going to contradict Jude 4 for the sake of orthodoxy. I also "proof texted" 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus and Paul agree.
If Jude 4 said God, I would fully believe!! God the Father is clearly presented as Lord God in the Hebrew as Adonai Elohim!! Gen 2:4 is a nice example.

You do realize that taking Jude 4 and Gen2:4 together you have presented a very big issue:
Jude 4 says that Christ is our ONLY Lord and master
Gen 2:4 says that the Lord God made Heaven and Earth.
So, according to Jude, Christ made Heaven and Earth and is God because there is only ONE Lord, Christ.

[RickD]

For to us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father!! unless this is removed from scripture, the one God of scripture will remain the Father and none other.
Jesus says "that they may know you (the Father) the only true God"

John, If you are going to prooftext John 17:3, and make it say that Jesus is not God, then you MUST think that God the Father is not Lord, because isn't that what Jude 4 says?
Jude 4:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a]marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is not God, and God the Father is not Lord, you have just opened up a whole can of worms for yourself.

I don't think Jude 1 is going to contradict Jude 4 for the sake of orthodoxy. I also "proof texted" 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus and Paul agree.
If Jude 4 said God, I would fully believe!! God the Father is clearly presented as Lord God in the Hebrew as Adonai Elohim!! Gen 2:4 is a nice example.

You do realize that taking Jude 4 and Gen2:4 together you have presented a very big issue:
Jude 4 says that Christ is our ONLY Lord and master
Gen 2:4 says that the Lord God made Heaven and Earth.
So, according to Jude, Christ made Heaven and Earth and is God because there is only ONE Lord, Christ.

I'm glad this is settled!
1stjohn, just bite the bullet, and believe Jesus is God.