Questions and discussion about Fred Phelps and WBC

[DRDS]

Hey everyone, I mentioned this nutjob and his crew before in a previous thread but I was wanting to get your all's thoughts on Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist church. I mean, do you all think they could actually be legitimate believers or do you think much like I do they are crazy heretics at the very least and intentional satires of Christianity at the very most?

What makes me nervous about him actually being a true believer is this site who happened to agree with all of his theology surprisingly just that his delivery was a little less than perfect.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20 ... phelps.htm

On the link above here is what caught my attention as far as their views on Phelps

" Pastor Fred Phelps comes a whole lot closer to being right than MOST pastors in America today! I'm not saying Pastor Phelps is correct in his approach, he's not. I know Fred Phelps could reach a whole lot more people for God if he'd present the love of God for sinners along with his hatred for sin. He doesn't even speak of God's love on his churches' website. I don't understand any professed believer who hates sin, but doesn't love the sinner as a person for whom Christ died (Romans 5:8). "

Now my biggest concern just like it was on the previous thread I did is that I really really hope that God's personality isn't like Fred Phelps's. But what if it is? I mean, how should we behave and act if indeed God really is like guys like Phelps and others?

I know I pick on Phelps here simply because he's pretty much a household name and every either knows about him or dislikes him. But I know and have seen other pastors and believers talk and act much like him. And it does make me wonder if that's the kind of personality God may like, prefer or even command of us.

And again, what if this is what true holiness and righteousness is supposed to look like? I pray to God that it's not supposed to look that but what if? This is something that really bothers me from time to time this self righteousness and prudish and even hateful attitude that believers have and it's so common and so widely used I'm nervous that this is what God is like.

But anyway, that's all I've got for now guys, Happy Turkey Day I guess.

[PaulSacramento]

If God was like Phelps, why on earth would Jesus have come to us?
Why would the word of God become flesh for Us? Die for Us?
Why would Jesus go against the very intolerance and hate that the pharisees were practicing, that is mirrored in what Phelps is doing?
If God doesn't LOVE and that Love isn't "head and shoulders" above ours, then He is inferior to Us and therefore, not God.

[DRDS]

Yes that's very true and I certainly agree with everything you say. Yes I know that God does but aside from us trusting in Him for salvation I'm mostly worried about how He will treat us after that fact considering that even most believers still sin after their conversion.

One of the things that bothers me is on one end, societies change over time in terms of how strict they are in terms of morality. Consider American churches now compared to the 1700s or 1800s. and how the communities were even part of the church.

In many ways in my opinion this was a good thing and in other ways not so good. Yes back then people were more moral, kinder, lived more simple and better lives and was mostly all around better than today from a Christian standpoint.

The bad thing was it was sometimes or perhaps many times went over board. Like for instance there were laws in place would forbid people from doing simple things on Sunday like walking down the street, a man kissing his wife, or cooking something to eat.

Or if a parent did not name their child after someone in the Bible there were fined or put in jail for a few days. Or if a person was caught wearing bright colored clothing and not something bland like black, tan, or gray they were either punished or at the very least considered grossly worldly and sinful.

Now what I'm nervous about is if the Bible is right about God never changing which I'm certain it is, and if society today has greatly strayed away from God and God's ways of living and if society was closer to God the early days of America or the early days in which the Old and New Testaments were written in and then gradually crept away from God in each passing generation like what I'm always told by pastors and other bible teachers.

To me, that would give good evidence to the argument that if God had everything going His away with society then we would be living in a legalistic Amish Quaker''s "paradise". And since Fred Phelps is the poster child or the most widely known person to me that represents this old fashioned, hateful and doom speaking, legalistic, wannabe Amish type of believer or preacher, the nervous part of me is tempted to think that this type of a person is closer to what God either wants or expects of us.

I mean, isn't Fred Phelps a lot like Jonathan Edwards or a John the Baptist type of a preacher anyway? Isn't this the same way or mostly similar way that these guys preached? I mean, Jonathan Edwards or John the Baptist or any other prophet or teacher or preacher from the Biblical times or even during the reformation period of the US were to climb into a time machine and come here to this time period wouldn't we expect them to preach at the crowds in the same exact manner?

That's what I'm mostly trying to get at and that's mostly where my fear is with this issue.

[PaulSacramento]

Now what I'm nervous about is if the Bible is right about God never changing which I'm certain it is, and if society today has greatly strayed away from God and God's ways of living and if society was closer to God the early days of America or the early days in which the Old and New Testaments were written in and then gradually crept away from God in each passing generation like what I'm always told by pastors and other bible teachers.

God doesn't change but people do.
Nowhere do you find in the OT the notion that the only begotten Son of God would become incarnate and die for Us, for our redemption.
And yet.
Did God change His mind or where even the OT prophets simply human with a incomplete understanding of ALL of God's plan?
When people fall away from God it is because a stumbling block has been put in their way, something the Christ warns us NEVER to do.
Ask those that fall away of they are falling away from God or from someones or some groups idea of God.
I am pretty sure you know the answer to that one.
God is not for everyone, Jesus is not for everyone and this we know BUT look at what Christ teaches, what he states plainly about how we are to treat others, Matthew 5 is a great first place to start.
The Word became flesh and died so that we may be reconciled with God, why? Because God LOVES Us.
Let that sink in my friend, Because God LOVES US.
You know how much you love your kids and loved ones? magnify by infinity and that is the beginning of understanding God's love.
Would you ever treat your children like Phelps does other people?
So, if you wouldn't, how would God who's love is SO MUCH more than ours?

[B. W.]

Nowhere do you find in the OT the notion that the only begotten Son of God would become incarnate and die for Us, for our redemption.
And yet.

Beg to differ here:

Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14

and then

Isaiah 53:1-12

Psalms 22:1-31

As for WBC it is written - 'even satan can come as an angel of light...'

Stay away from poison and expose them as non-christian as they practice what Gal 5:20, 21 warns against doing...
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[PaulSacramento]

Nowhere do you find in the OT the notion that the only begotten Son of God would become incarnate and die for Us, for our redemption.
And yet.

Beg to differ here:

Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14

and then

Isaiah 53:1-12

Psalms 22:1-31

As for WBC it is written - 'even satan can come as an angel of light...'

Stay away from poison and expose them as non-christian as they practice what Gal 5:20, 21 warns against doing...
-
-
-

I should have said explicitly, I apologize.

[DRDS]

A few more other things I was wanting to add, I seem to get caught up in these strange and vicious cycles. I"ll first start doubting God's loving nature and as a consequence doubt my own salvation, talk to some believers about (such as you guys here) and for a few days I'll have my confidence in God's love for me and others restored along with my salvation assurance.

Then because I feel so happy and grateful towards God after that I then do what most everyone who feels the same way I do does, tries to get even more closer to Him and it's usually though reading the Bible or hearing the Bible taught from other people such as preachers. But once I do that I end up either at certain passages in the Bible or hear certain preachers who have that Fred Phelps method or style of preaching which then cause me to again doubt God's love and my salvation.

So with that said, what should I do to break the cycle? Or is this cycle something that is actually normal and healthy for a believer to go though?

And secondly, it is my view that preachers both well known and locally known who adopt the style and method in which Fred Phelps adopts to me seem to really be a driving force behind this new atheist movement or more specifically behind all of the people who claim that they used to be followers of Christ until they got treated bad by other believers or had bad experiences in the church and thus decided to give up on Christianity.

If it wasn't for the preaching methods like the ones used by Phelps I feel like we would have tons more people following Christ. I mean let's face it, sharing the gospel it's a lot like selling a product, a service of some kind like computer repair or dental work, or selling virtually anything that would be of good worth to people.

And when you are doing that, yes you do need to tell them the full story,you do need to tell people about their sinful nature and about what will happen if they don't follow Christ.

It's just like when you are trying to sell anything to anyone you need to be honest and give them the facts because that establishes good business relationships and makes the company you are with more trustworthy, attractive and to get to the bottom line it sells more product.

But at the same time you don't need to needlessly yell, scream, and act like a hateful,insane,looney drunk retards in the process. I don't understand why preachers, pastors, or whoever speaks about the gospel loves to use this type of methods. These methods are not only ancient but they absolutely do NOT work.

Do you see the advertisers for cars, sodas, airlines, cellphones, or anything yell, scream, and hurl insults at people when they advertise their products? Well I mean sometimes they yell a bit but that's usually just for gimmick purposes.

But still is the norm? Let's face it, the Church as a whole needs more nicer, calmer speaking, intelligent, dignified people like William Lane Craig, Hugh Ross,Alvin Plantinga, Gary Habermas and so on not just for the kind of content but because of their STYLE, METHODS, and DEMEANOR as well.

If churches do not get that or even worse, if they get that but they refuse to do it then it's going to be very hard for potential converts to tell the difference between true Christianity and false Jonestown style cults. That's my take on it.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that what parts of the bible a preacher focuses on says a lot about him and his listeners.
Some people just like the whole notion of a "wraith and hell fire God", of course they like it only when they believe they are on HIS side, LOL !