Trinitarian Theology

[secretfire6]

I bet Angels are just like us...us as in our spirits not our flesh. They are spirits that have learned and experienced all things and made it back to unity with the father and no longer NEED to incarnate. That is our goal also. In Paradise we will find out. If they get ressurected bodies, they are like us, if they don't then they are different somehow.

The way I understand it is that the spirit that was in the man Y'shua is not one and the same as God the Father. Y'shua is his own spirit, his own being, but is in unity with the Father. I think statements like "God in the flesh" and "the three are one" describing who he is are confusing. It makes it sound like God as a whole left the heavenly realm and incarnated here on earth. Scripture is quite clear that Y'shua was chosen long ago to be SENT to earth as savior. He was sent by the Father, therefore cannot also be the Father. Y'shua became the only begotten when he was BAPTISED not when he was born. It was his uniting with the holy spirit of the Father that was the being "born from above" that he told Nicodemus, the Apostles and all of us about.

here's some food for thought. If Y'shua was the almighty in any form, then the crucifixion wasn't much of a sacrifice was it? Think about it. If you are the immortal, all powerful Creator that can incarnate or manifest into anything at any time and own all of creation, then living one short human life and being murdered on purpose isn't giving up anything. However if you are not all those things and could not incarnate or manifest at will , grew up as a normal human being with all the limitations then gained ultimate knowledge, experience, power And had the ability and opportunity to be ruler of the world (brings up point 2) but willingly gave it up for other people to also gain what you have gained, WOW now that is a true sacrifice. When Y'shua returns he will gain all the things he gave up in his 1st century life. He will be king of kings and lord of lords, but he will still be identified as seperate from God the father.
while speaking of being ruler of the world, what did Satan tempt Y'shua with in the desert? If he was the Father then this temptation would be pointless since he would already own all of creation. Someone offering you what you already own is not tempting. It was Y'shua's destiny to be ruler of earth and what Satan was really testing was his ability to wait for God's appointed time. The other issue is what Satan asked for in exchange for earth's rulership. He wanted Y'shua to worship him. If Y'shua was the Almighty this would also be pointless and besides it wasn't Satan's goal to be greater than God, that's an impossibility, He wants to be equal to God and draw worship away from the Father and to himself.
If there is a heirarchy in heaven, then certainly Y'shua is number two and from what Enoch says, he's been there for a long time. I think I'm in agreement with most here that the trinity is closer to the truth than oneness, but still fails to really describe God and his relationship to his creation. it will probably be something we continue to learn and grow in while spending eternity with him in paradise.

[PaulSacramento]

The Trinity is not a dosctrine of "authority" or of "chain of command", it is a doctrine of nature.
Beings can be the same and still be subject to each other.
Christ being God doesn't take away from Him being subject to The Father.

[secretfire6]

I don't think there is a heirarchy or chain of command either, not like we understand it( that was a hypothetical IF), but I also don't belive Jesus was just an alias for an incarnated Father. The trinity is more on the right path, but I feel puts a limit on what God really is as well as confuses the identity of Y'shua's spirit.

[PaulSacramento]

I don't think there is a heirarchy or chain of command either, not like we understand it( that was a hypothetical IF), but I also don't believe Jesus was just an alias for an incarnated Father. The trinity is more on the right path, but I feel puts a limit on what God really is as well as confuses the identity of Y'shua's spirit.

Jesus was the Incarnate WORD of God, He was NOT The Father Incarnate.
Again, we must focus on the NATURE not the identity/personality.
It gets confusing because everywhere the God appears in the OT, we now know, that was really God's word, ie: Christ.
That is why Jesus said that NO MAN has ever seen God ( that includes Moses, Abe, ELijah, etc, etc).
That is because whenever they saw God they saw His Word, the per-incarnate Jesus, the exact form of God, How God is revealed to Man.

[B. W.]

I don't think there is a heirarchy or chain of command either, not like we understand it( that was a hypothetical IF), but I also don't believe Jesus was just an alias for an incarnated Father. The trinity is more on the right path, but I feel puts a limit on what God really is as well as confuses the identity of Y'shua's spirit.

Jesus was the Incarnate WORD of God, He was NOT The Father Incarnate.
Again, we must focus on the NATURE not the identity/personality.
It gets confusing because everywhere the God appears in the OT, we now know, that was really God's word, ie: Christ.
That is why Jesus said that NO MAN has ever seen God ( that includes Moses, Abe, ELijah, etc, etc).
That is because whenever they saw God they saw His Word, the per-incarnate Jesus, the exact form of God, How God is revealed to Man.

Very good discussion and enlightening!

A hardy Thanks to everyone's postings here
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[1stjohn0666]

1stjohn wrote:
John, again, one doesn't need to completely understand the trinity to be a believer. But, one surely has to believe in the Jesus who is God in the flesh. A merely human Jesus, like the one you believe in, is a false Jesus

The bible never uses the term "mere man" so I would consider that idea unbiblical.

[RickD]

1stjohn wrote:
John, again, one doesn't need to completely understand the trinity to be a believer. But, one surely has to believe in the Jesus who is God in the flesh. A merely human Jesus, like the one you believe in, is a false Jesus

The bible never uses the term "mere man" so I would consider that idea unbiblical.

John, I said, "merely human". Merely means only. Your jesus is only human, and not God. Therefore, your jesus is not the biblical Jesus who saves. So, you are lost in your sins.
John, your beliefs are within Unitarianism. Unfortunately for you, Unitarianism is a cult.

[1stjohn0666]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

[B. W.]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses
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[1stjohn0666]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses
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Here is the "BULK of the Gospel that Jesus taught!! One verse can identify it. Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
The Gospel is about the kingdom of God!! The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.
Jesus was 100% dead. He did not half die or part die. His Father raised him as we are going to be in the future "mortal will put on immortality"
Shalom

[PaulSacramento]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses
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Here is the "BULK of the Gospel that Jesus taught!! One verse can identify it. Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
The Gospel is about the kingdom of God

And who's kingdom is the kingdom of God?
Hint, He is called King and his kingdom will have no end as per Luke 1:32,33

[1stjohn0666]

Are you confusing the throne of God with Davids throne? Jesus gives back the kingdom to his God and Father 1 Cor 15:24-28

[PaulSacramento]

Are you confusing the throne of God with Davids throne?

OIVEY !!!

[PaulSacramento]

Are you confusing the throne of God with Davids throne? Jesus gives back the kingdom to his God and Father 1 Cor 15:24-28

So, if Jesus is not king in the kingdom of God, where is He King and what kingdom is he giving Back ?

[1stjohn0666]

Are you confusing the throne of God with Davids throne? Jesus gives back the kingdom to his God and Father 1 Cor 15:24-28

So, if Jesus is not king in the kingdom of God, where is He King and what kingdom is he giving Back ?

Jesus is king!! Remember Jesus is heir of all things. The one who gave it to the son, the son must return it to the one who gave it. 1 Cor 15:24-28