The Law

[cheezerrox]

Dude...even orthodox Jews don't follow ALL of them, most would say ( and have said to me in discussion) that a large number have been "done away" as obsolete and no longer applicable.
The Torah has always been interpreted by the Jewish community and their leaders as to HOW to apply the Laws and went NOT to.
Starting for the Rabbinic times through the medieval ages, to the Jewish reformists to today.
When was the last time a Jew stoned a homosexual or a son that was rebellious?

There are some commandments that are impossible to fulfill, like sacrifice (since it can only lawfully be done at the Temple; Leviticus 1:1-2, Deut 12:5-6) and execution (has to be done in the theocracy of Israel, judged by the Sanhedrin, and have multiple witnesses, Deut 19:15; note the law concerning executing idolaters, Deut 13:6-11. Verse 6 makes it clear only a MEMBER of theocratic Israel can be judged, and verse 7 mentions people nearby who worship other gods without repurcussion).

Torah has always been interpreted and made applicable by the Jewish community, rabbis, and sages, you are most certainly correct about that; that's the whole point of the Oral Torah/Talmud. They even have Scriptural authority for this (Ex 18:20, Deut 16:18, 17:8-11). But, when their rulings contradict Scripture itself, and, now that Messiah has come, if they contradict His teachings, then they aren't valid.

As far as Jews stoning a homosexual or a rebellious son, see above about execution (also, fwiw, not once in Israel's history was anyone executed for the law of the rebellious son. Read the passage again, Deut 21:18-21. It's very specific requirements to be punished!).

Again, I'm glad you're addressing these issues, Paul, because these are comman arguments against Messianic theology and I'm glad we have the oppurtunity to discuss and answer them.

[PaulSacramento]

I a glad we get to discuss these things and questions that I and others have, get answered.
Understanding, even if not agreeing, brings Us ALL close together In Christ's Church.

[cheezerrox]

I a glad we get to discuss these things and questions that I and others have, get answered.
Understanding, even if not agreeing, brings Us ALL close together In Christ's Church.

Most definitely, my friend. Discussion and, as you said, understanding edifies the Body, and for that I'm thankful.

[KBCid]

They among all the peoples in existence at that time were chosen... by God to be a peculiar people, a light to the nations;
...The Jewish people were to exemplify to all the nations around them a message from their maker.

O they are doing a great job at being the light of the world and especially being an example to follow in the world today... Somehow I am not impressed and I find it least Christian at times.

The entire biblical record was brought to you by Jews through the power of God.

The Jews became jewish after they began to interact with God. God is the root cause for why they exist. Spiritual israel is Jewish by its inntended meaning. To be Jewish as it was intended was to live in accordance with God and not in opposition. The Jewish people were to exemplify to all the nations around them a message from their maker.

But all of this does not make God Jewish, I hope you can realize at some point later, the theological blunder you guys are making here.

You are not adressing how Jews came into existence or for that matter what it means to be Jewish. Jews did not exist prior to Gods interaction with them. Jews are the children of israel. The children of israel did not exist prior to God interacting with man. So define why Jews / children of israel came to exist. For every effect (jewishness) there is a root cause (God). Jesus who embodied God within his fleshly temple is the king of the Jews.

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

You can't be king of a nation you are not part of.

...Although He differed with some of His contemporaries on how to keep the commandments (Matt. 12:12), He did not disagree on whether to keep them, saying such things as,"if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments," (Matt. 19:17). When He healed someone of leprosy, he instructed him to,"show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded..." (Matt. 8:4, Lev. 14).

Yeshua not only taught others how to live a Jewish life, He lived it Himself. The outward signs of this were such things as wearing tzitzit (tassles) on His clothing (Luke 8:43, Matt. 14:36, Strong's # 2899) to serve as a reminder of the commandments (Num. 15:37-39). He observed Passover (John 2:13) and went up to Jerusalem (Deut. 16:16). He observed Succot (John 7:2, 10) and went up to Jerusalem (John 7:14). He also observed Hanukah (John 10:22) and probably Rosh haShanah (John 5:1), going up to Jerusalem on both those occasions as well, even though it isn't commanded in the Torah.

The inward sign of His Judaism was a circumcised heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6).

When faced with temptation, Yeshua answered from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 4:2-10, Deut. 8:3, 6:16, 6:13). When teaching, He taught from the Hebrew Scripture (Matt. 22:42-45). When admonishing, He quoted from the Hebrew Scripture (Mk. 7:6-13).

Yeshua self-identified as a Jew (John 4:22) and as King of the Jews (Mk. 15:2). From His birth to His last Passover seder (Luke 22:14-15), Jesus lived as a Jew.
---------
Many years after His resurrection, Yeshua testified that He is the root and offspring of king David (Rev. 22:16), and in a time yet future, two of His titles will be Lion of the tribe of Judah, and Root of David (Rev. 5:5).
In Matt. 24:20 He told us to pray concerning the coming tribulation, that we would not have to flee on the Sabbath. And in Matt. 26:27-29 Yeshua told the disciples that He will celebrate the Passover seder anew with us in His Father's kingdom.
The standard He will use at the judgement is the Law God gave the Jews. To those who do not do the will of God, He will say, "Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matt. 7:22-23, Strong's # 458, 459).
http://jesusisajew.org/Jesus_is_a_Jew.php

Being Jewish is a manner of existing. Jews were to be one nation... under God... with liberty and justice for all. To be properly Jewish they were supposed to reflect God in all things. Being Jewish or spiritual israel is to live according to what we were created for... to be the image of God in the spirit.
The words brought to us by the Jews through the power of God were not their own personal words. The words originated from God himself to define how humans should exist under his guidance. You were jewish if you believed and followed his word. Spiritual israel will also exist under Gods government according to his word. Gods word to us is that we are to be holy just as he is... To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

[neo-x]

You were jewish if you believed and followed his word. Spiritual israel will also exist under Gods government according to his word. Gods word to us is that we are to be holy just as he is... To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

Sorry, that may be thought of so, under some very modern understanding of messianic Judaism, historically, that is not so. We do not become Israel, they have a different covenant, we have a different one.

[RickD]

KBCid wrote:
To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

To "strive" to be like God is the antithesis of why Christ came.

[cheezerrox]

Being Jewish is a manner of existing. Jews were to be one nation... under God... with liberty and justice for all. To be properly Jewish they were supposed to reflect God in all things. Being Jewish or spiritual israel is to live according to what we were created for... to be the image of God in the spirit.
The words brought to us by the Jews through the power of God were not their own personal words. The words originated from God himself to define how humans should exist under his guidance. You were jewish if you believed and followed his word. Spiritual israel will also exist under Gods government according to his word. Gods word to us is that we are to be holy just as he is... To be Jewish is to strive to be like God.

Be careful, brother. You cannot become a Jew, unless you convert to Judaism. The church is not the new Israel, that is replacement theology, which is heretical. There is a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and it has nothing to do with believing, following G-d's Word, or striving to be like G-d. It's about what kind of blood you were born with. You're confusing being spiritual with being Jewish, the two are not synonymous.

[neo-x]

Be careful, brother. You cannot become a Jew, unless you convert to Judaism. The church is not the new Israel, that is replacement theology, which is heretical. There is a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and it has nothing to do with believing, following G-d's Word, or striving to be like G-d. It's about what kind of blood you were born with. You're confusing being spiritual with being Jewish, the two are not synonymous.

Excellent point, cheez.

[Gman]

Sorry, that may be thought of so, under some very modern understanding of messianic Judaism, historically, that is not so.

Messianic gentiles aren't Jews nor do we claim to be Jews.. We most certainly do not replace Jews or Israel. That is heresy..

We do not become Israel, they have a different covenant, we have a different one.

Unfortunately that claim is false... Christian’s graft into the commonwealth of Israel and are co-citizens with the Jews (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24). Also G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13) not anyone else or church. Yeshua did not cause division in the body as you claim. He came for the nation of Israel to bring them together and make them one (John 11:51-52).

[neo-x]

Unfortunately that claim is false... Christian’s graft into the commonwealth of Israel and are co-citizens with the Jews (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24). Also G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13) not anyone else or church. Yeshua did not cause division in the body as you claim. He came for the nation of Israel to bring them together and make them one (John 11:51-52).

Actually its not false, its true, the purpose may be to join them in Christ, not in Israel common wealth, but the covenant is different, you can't say otherwise without being wrong.

[Gman]

Actually its not false, its true, the purpose may be to join them in Christ, not in Israel common wealth, but the covenant is different, you can't say otherwise without being wrong.

Your claims are false... You have absolutely no scripture to backup your claims. Yeshua came for the lost sheep of Israel Matthew 15:24, not the lost sheep of some mystical church.. If you say he did then you are teaching replacement theology.

[neo-x]

Your claims are false... You have absolutely no scripture to backup your claims. Yeshua came for the lost sheep of Israel Matthew 15:24, not the lost sheep of some mystical church.. If you say he did then you are teaching replacement theology.

If by scripture, you mean cherry-picked-proof-texted verses to suit your case, then no, I don't have those.

Yeshua came for the lost sheep of Israel Matthew 15:24

I guess then John 3:16 was written down just for kicks.

If you say he did then you are teaching replacement theology

Then you are also preaching Judaism, not the gospel.

[Gman]

Then you are also preaching Judaism, not the gospel.

You don't have the gospel if you separate the Torah from the newer covenant. Neither do you have a definition of love outside the Book.

[neo-x]

Gman » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:13 am

neo-x wrote:
Then you are also preaching Judaism, not the gospel.


You don't have the gospel if you separate the Torah from the newer covenant. Neither do you have a definition of love outside the Book.

As history, theology or context is concerned I don't think we need to separate anything, as practical teachings, the Torah is simply irrelevant IN APPLICATION to the core of Christian faith. It can be imported in faith and applied to your life (which you have done) but take it apart and the message of the gospel still stands. Unless you are saying that I, who do not follow the Torah AT ALL, am not a believer to begin with, I am not sure what the fuss is about?

Love is what Christ showed us, what more do you want?

[Gman]

As history, theology or context is concerned I don't think we need to separate anything, as practical teachings, the Torah is simply irrelevant IN APPLICATION to the core of Christian faith. It can be imported in faith and applied to your life (which you have done) but take it apart and the message of the gospel still stands. Unless you are saying that I, who do not follow the Torah AT ALL, am not a believer to begin with, I am not sure what the fuss is about?

If you are not Christan then what faith are you?

Love is what Christ showed us, what more do you want?

You say love but you have no working definition of love outside of Torah... Therefore you will have to provide your own definition of love outside of the book... Your own god, your own mystical church...