Validity of the ultimate sacrifice?

[pinusresinosa]

I'm sorry about making this my first post here. I'm an ex-believer with some things bothering me.

I came here because of a Google search that led me to this same kind of question on this board, but I didn't feel like what I was reading was enough. I secretly think I'm doing everything I can to be convinced on the whole Christian thing. I'm tired of my family leaving me out of things and pitying me because I don't believe what they do, so I'm trying to sincerely get on the wagon train. I just can't do it myself, so here I am for help.

My first of many questions:

My question is, was the sacrifice Jesus made for us really a sacrifice worthy of all sins, for all people, for ever? I ask because Jesus was God and Man, and as God he knew what this death would be like, he knew when it would be, and he knew he'd rise from the dead. He knew he was eternal. I know that if I knew my life was everlasting, death would be so meaningless regardless of the pain. I spent two days in full labor with my first child before having an emergency Cesarian- I know pain. I know fear. It would have been a lot easier if I knew I couldn't die and my pain was going to guarantee forgiveness for all sins, not just for the life of my child. In terms of forever, a few days of pain would be absolutely nothing. It doesn't make sense to me that the God of billions, the savior, would beg and plead for something easier than a few days of pain and death when he knew he'd live forever and he knew he was God. The two things just don't equal up.

Why did God have to show us that he was willing to kill his son to forgive the bad things we do? His son would live forever as a leader to so many people... wouldn't most fathers do the same thing if they were in the exact same situation? God is everything and knows everything, why can't we just see that and know that God simply forgives?

[jlay]

Let me ask you this, how does Jesus' 'knowing' make the act less meaningful?

It doesn't make sense to me that the God of billions, the savior, would beg and plead for something easier than a few days of pain and death when he knew he'd live forever and he knew he was God. The two things just don't equal up.

I'd say the pain wasn't from the physical torment, but all the corrpution and horror of sin being imparted to one who was unstained.
The greater issue here is the humanity of Christ, which is something I think you, as well as many others, have a hard time understanding.

What does sin mean to you?

[GreyDeSilvisanctis]

I see where you're coming from.
It has trouble me for quite some time as well. However, I found answers that might help.
This has something to do with Free Will, I'm certain you've heard of it.
Now, think of it this way: In order for a being to love, that being must have free will. God created us with free will to give us an exclusive choice between loving or hating Him. He knew the Fall would happen (Satan and his deception...) so He had Jesus, His only begotten Son [John 3:16], come for us and save us this is the reason why He was called the Messiah or Savior. The gravity of what Jesus would go through is great because it meant He would be separated from God the Father and become sin which is the complete opposite of God's Holy Nature and Jesus' very Nature as well. So don't think that even though God is eternal, that small dot in the stream of infinity in His time is insignificant; time was created by God [Genesis 1:1] so He is separate from it and even if time did matter, well, take a look at 2 Peter 3:8.

We should take note: God's ways is higher than our own.

~Grey

[PaulSacramento]

God didn't kill His Son.
The Romans did.

[Sam1995]

Jesus is fully man and fully God.
That's why he is the ultimate sacrifice, he was not just a mere human who was perfect, he was also the incarnate word of God.

SB

[PaulSacramento]

Some skeptics say that the whole doctrine of "sacrifice" is horrific, that the concept of someone dying for someone else is barbaric and atrocious, that any omnipotent being that requires a sacrifice to appease it's anger and wraith is detestable.
And to a certain extend and viewed that way, one can see where they are coming from.
It really isn't the self-sacrifice part because EVERYONE can relate or at least understand the notion of dying so a loved one can live ( even if they don't agree with it).
I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

[Sam1995]

I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

Could you elaborate on that? That to me, does not seem to be the case at all. It appears to me that the sacrifice was most definitely needed. Is our God not a God of justice as well as love?

SB

[pinusresinosa]

God's way is higher than our own... I agree. This is exactly why quotations from the bible an the same boxed explanation isn't good enough for me, and maybe this is my problem.

Humanity of Christ? To me, the fact that he was a God/Man doesn't make his death any more meaningful than the many people who have absolutely laid their lives down for the sake of others. There are thousands of examples. The fact that he was God makes that meaningless to me. God's way is higher than our own... he is GOD. A short physical life on Earth among the scum of his creation? Physical pain, emotional pain... you'd think GOD could easily conquer these things. God is bigger than this. If God isn't bigger than this, then to me God couldn't possibly be the ultimate answer to everything. No... to me this sounds like a pretty good human construct and nothing more.

What is sin to me? Sin is the same thing to me as it is to everyone else. The bible has sin pretty well nailed down in my opinion.

[jlay]

What is sin to me? Sin is the same thing to me as it is to everyone else. The bible has sin pretty well nailed down in my opinion.

So who is the sin against?
For sin to be sin, there has to be one who is the ultimate standard by which morality is established?

Humanity of Christ? To me, the fact that he was a God/Man doesn't make his death any more meaningful than the many people who have absolutely laid their lives down for the sake of others.

I think you've made some assumptions about what I meant by Christ's human nature. What do you mean by "meaningful?"
There is no question people have laid down their lives for the sake of others. By what standard was their sacrifice 'good'?

Let me as you this. Now keep in mind, this is an analogy and I am only using it one sense, and not analogous in every sense. Let's say you owe a debt. $200k. And at the time you have no job and no hope to pay off this debt. Along comes a billionaire and pays off your debt in full. Would you say, "so what? It's meaningless. $200k to this billionaire won't even put a dent in the intersest he earns today." The fact is that his gift settled the debt.

[PaulSacramento]

I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

Could you elaborate on that? That to me, does not seem to be the case at all. It appears to me that the sacrifice was most definitely needed. Is our God not a God of justice as well as love?

SB

I am referring to how a skeptic/non-believer would view it.
It is an argument I have heard before.
If God is God why did His son have to die?

[PaulSacramento]

Ransom theology has been of many different types over the centuries:
Ransom to be paid to:
God
Satan
Death
Sin

Some have said that the issue was that the ransom analogy was taken further than the original author would have wanted it to be.

[Sam1995]

I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

Could you elaborate on that? That to me, does not seem to be the case at all. It appears to me that the sacrifice was most definitely needed. Is our God not a God of justice as well as love?

SB

I am referring to how a skeptic/non-believer would view it.
It is an argument I have heard before.
If God is God why did His son have to die?

Ahh, I see.
He was fully God and fully man, the perfect blend for the perfect sacrifice. Jesus being fully man was perfect for Him to die for the sins of man, and His perfection from Him being fully God enabled Him to be the ULTIMATE sacrifice.

Also, God deemed Jesus to be a fitting way to end the need for sacrifices.

SB

[meli46]

I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

Could you elaborate on that? That to me, does not seem to be the case at all. It appears to me that the sacrifice was most definitely needed. Is our God not a God of justice as well as love?

SB

I am referring to how a skeptic/non-believer would view it.
It is an argument I have heard before.
If God is God why did His son have to die?

Ahh, I see.
He was fully God and fully man, the perfect blend for the perfect sacrifice. Jesus being fully man was perfect for Him to die for the sins of man, and His perfection from Him being fully God enabled Him to be the ULTIMATE sacrifice.

Also, God deemed Jesus to be a fitting way to end the need for sacrifices.

SB

Hello,

i see this from the man point of view , do you think this sacrifice was made for us because this is the only way a human in it's condition would see the significance of such sacrifice ?

[B. W.]

I think what is bothersome is the notion that the sacrifice was required to pay some "ransom" to a God that quite obviously didn't need it to happen in that way.

Could you elaborate on that? That to me, does not seem to be the case at all. It appears to me that the sacrifice was most definitely needed. Is our God not a God of justice as well as love?

SB

I am referring to how a skeptic/non-believer would view it.
It is an argument I have heard before.
If God is God why did His son have to die?

Ahh, I see.
He was fully God and fully man, the perfect blend for the perfect sacrifice. Jesus being fully man was perfect for Him to die for the sins of man, and His perfection from Him being fully God enabled Him to be the ULTIMATE sacrifice.

Also, God deemed Jesus to be a fitting way to end the need for sacrifices.

SB

Hello,

i see this from the man point of view , do you think this sacrifice was made for us because this is the only way a human in it's condition would see the significance of such sacrifice ?

Meli46, you are closer than you think...

Let's read several verses regarding this from the book of Romans and then explore these verses in greater detail...

Romans 5:6-11, 6 When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. 7 Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. 8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. 9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. 10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God. NLT

First notice what the first part of verse 6 is saying: When we were utterly helpless… Romans 5:6, NLT

How were we utterly helpless? Humanity through centuries does not like to think themselves as helpless. Look at the modern militant atheist and agnostics as an example of this. In Romans, Paul, does write that folks are enemies of God and have no thought or desire of become right with God in any shape or form. They need a rude shocking awakening...

How do you reach such people? Answer, wake them up – pure shock value that would transcend time and all centuries of time that would expose what the heck sin really is in the first place and bring healing and restoration after that.

So to help pinusresinosa with his (her?) question – I’ll ask a question – what do you think sin is?

Next in Romans 5:6 it continues, ...Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. NLT

How ‘was’ that accomplished and what for?

Jesus came for this purpose: reveal what sin is in a time, in a people chosen in one particular geographic location who God revealed himself too, at a time in history before populations exploded, to reveal what sin is, its effect on all humanity, and whom one's sins separated us from (God), in an act that would wake a person up for his/her need of the Good Shepherd.

Matt 9:35-36 NLT reveals part of this concept: Jesus… 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were confused and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Jesus saw what? People were confused/distressed/harassed and helpless/dispirited/cast helplessly about - without anyone to help them find another way to live…

Are you, reading this feel like this? Harassed by life – dispirited – feel cast helplessly about in the sea of life only to drown in the ocean of nothingness? Some folks even hedonistically proudly boast that they love the nothingness at the end of life, yet, the older they get…

What would it take for people wake up to see what truly makes such a harassing distressed life that also makes others proudly boast in nothingness? An act that transcends time and place in a manner completed in such a way that would wake people up to see the reason for their aloneness spinning upon this globe called the earth that separated them from this one and only true shepherd and overseer of the soul, would.

What shall such a wakeup call actually look like?

Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. 8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. Romans 5:6-9, NLT

By dying and rising from the dead.

In dying, exposing what is truly in the heart of every man and woman on this planet. This is where folks miss the full impact of the gospel. They limited the gospel to only the legal requirements of Substitutionary Atonement, alone. Yes, Christ did that, but there is so much more that Jesus did as well too. He exposed and reveal what makes us helpless, harassed, proud, alone, dispirited, angry, bitter, smugly comforted in the solace of ideas and reason.

In Matthew 26:1-75 reveals this. People plotted against Jesus, who went about doing what? Doing good and setting free the oppressed (see Isa 61:1-4 on what he was doing). He shown the Father’s love to a lost humanity. Helped them find true solace of heart, soul, and spirit. Think of it as Jesus being the epitome of goodness.

What do human beings do to goodness? Seek to silence it, plan to kill it, take goodness out of the public square and replace it with their-own ways by any means possible. Matthew 26 is all about what people do with absolute goodness. Plan its demise, betray it, then desert it, place it on trial, provide false testimony against God’s Goodness, seeking to entrap and ensure goodness as being bad - Even going to the highest courts in the land for this purpose.

Jesus in another chapter of Matthew, spoke this principle: When you have done it to the least of these…you done it to me…

Mat 27:1-66 goes on to explain what people do with true goodness and grace shown to them.

Seek to bind up goodness and lead it away to more show trials, goodness beaten, mocked, whipped, exchanged for the bad (people desire badness to be released to curse the land), dress up goodness in purple and show contempt toward goodness, force goodness to bear a splintered wooden cross wearing a crown of thorns unjustly planted upon his head, drive nails into goodness’s hands and feet in a hugging position so that goodness cannot embrace humanity again, divide goodness’ possessions, give goodness sourness to partake of…

Jesus in another chapter of Matthew, spoke this principle: When you have done it to the least of these…you done it to me…

As he hung upon that cross, God’s Goodness fully exposed, in a hugging position, he took the wrath of God between God and man while suspended between heaven and earth. Before that on earth, He took on himself our sins by the laying on of humanities hands upon himself. In doing these two things, he exposed what we do to each other, God, and exposed who really harasses in a public display – defeating that adversary soundly.

Jesus spoke this principle: When you have done it to the least of these…you done it to me…

Who have you betrayed, beaten with words or anger? Who have we murdered in our hearts with one-up-manship, self righteous justifications? Who have we put on trial in our lives? How have we mocked God and his goodness today? How often do we demand the freedom to release badness into the land to curse it thinking this is the right way? How do we seek control? Who have we nailed to cross?

Without this act upon the cross, we would never know what true sin is…

Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. 8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners….

…9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

…10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God. NLT

So great is God’s love displayed by His Goodness, his Logos, Jesus Christ that he was raised from such a death for us to be justified in God’s sight as though we never have done these things to God and each other. He did this to reconcile us back into our true fold with him as the shepherd and overseer of our souls. All he ask is this...

“How are these things possible?” ...

10 Jesus replied, “You are a respected ... teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. 12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

Note these things:

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. Luke 23:34, NASB

Jesus… When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were confused and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. Matt 9:35-36 NLT

6 When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. 7 Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. 8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. 9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. 10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. 11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God. Romans 5:6-11, NLT

"(The King) Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' Mat 25:40 NKJV
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[lexy]

God didn't kill His Son.
The Romans did.

No the Romans didn't kill Jesus. The Jews did. The Jews clamored for his death. The Romans being the ruler merely carried out the wishes of the people, namely the Jews.