Baptism

[domokunrox]

Rick, you never fail to bring the same argument with an improper exegesis.

John 3:5 and Titus 3:5 are directly analogous.
Meaning, there are 2 predications in the statements, not 1 as you've incorrectly shown.
Also, there is no valid inference for you to draw that baptism is "symbolic". Every baptism in the gospels, acts, and so forth was done literally in water.

The reference to John 7:38 is just plain false analogy thinking it holds your position up. It does not work. Living water is something else, bud.

[PaulSacramento]

Baptism is important for many.
Some see it as the defining act of conversion.
One wonders why Jesus never baptized anyone though...His followers did however but the ACT of baptism doesn't seem to be very prevalent in His ministry.
The baptism of the HS certainly seems to be THE moment when one is sealed by the HS and the baptism by water seems to be when one's "sins are washed away".

[Sam1995]

Baptism is important for many.
Some see it as the defining act of conversion.
One wonders why Jesus never baptized anyone though...His followers did however but the ACT of baptism doesn't seem to be very prevalent in His ministry.
The baptism of the HS certainly seems to be THE moment when one is sealed by the HS and the baptism by water seems to be when one's "sins are washed away".

That's a very good question, why did Jesus not actually baptize anyone? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that He would be baptizing people in his own name? Or would that be irrelevant?

Still, really interesting thought!

SB

[PaulSacramento]

Baptism is important for many.
Some see it as the defining act of conversion.
One wonders why Jesus never baptized anyone though...His followers did however but the ACT of baptism doesn't seem to be very prevalent in His ministry.
The baptism of the HS certainly seems to be THE moment when one is sealed by the HS and the baptism by water seems to be when one's "sins are washed away".

That's a very good question, why did Jesus not actually baptize anyone? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that He would be baptizing people in his own name? Or would that be irrelevant?

Still, really interesting thought!

SB

I really don't know but I always found it fascinating that there was no record of Jesus himself baptizing anyone.

[Sam1995]

Neither do I, now that you've brought the question up, I'm interested too!

SB

[RickD]

domokunrox wrote:
John 3:5 and Titus 3:5 are directly analogous.

let's look at John 3:5-6: 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his Jewish birth (born of water) was not going to save him. What Jesus says in verse 6, removes any doubt that Jesus wasn't talking about water baptism. Nicodemus wasn't understanding the spiritual. He was stuck on the physical. Nicodemus didn't understand how someone could be born twice.

Also, there is no valid inference for you to draw that baptism is "symbolic". Every baptism in the gospels, acts, and so forth was done literally in water.

Dom, I'm not saying that water baptism is done in some kind of symbolic water. Water baptism(immersion in water) identifies a believer with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Water baptized believers don't literally die, get buried, and get resurrected during a water baptism ceremony. It's symbolic.

Water baptism is also an outward profession of what has happened inwardly in a believer. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the inward reality, water baptism is the outward profession of that reality. The inward baptism of the Holy Spirit which happens when one professes faith in Christ.
Again, God saves by the power of the Holy Spirit in a believer. Water baptism, done by hands of men, is a symbol of the true, saving baptism, done by the hands of God.(And yes, "hands" of God is also symbolic )

domokunrox wrote:
The reference to John 7:38 is just plain false analogy thinking it holds your position up. It does not work. Living water is something else, bud.

Dom, living water in John 7:38 is a symbol of the Holy Spirit in a believer. Just like baptism in water symbolizes Holy Spirit baptism.

[RickD]

Sam1995 wrote:
That's a very good question, why did Jesus not actually baptize anyone? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that He would be baptizing people in his own name? Or would that be irrelevant?

Sam, I argue that Jesus did baptize.

See Mark 1:7-8, where John the Baptist said: 7 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” emphasis in bold mine

Maybe Jesus didn't baptize in water, because John the Baptist was a type of forerunner of Christ. JTB baptized in water, to point to the One who would come after him, and baptize by the Holy Spirit.

[PaulSacramento]

Sam1995 wrote:
That's a very good question, why did Jesus not actually baptize anyone? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that He would be baptizing people in his own name? Or would that be irrelevant?

Sam, I argue that Jesus did baptize.

See Mark 1:7-8, where John the Baptist said: 7 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” emphasis in bold mine

Maybe Jesus didn't baptize in water, because John the Baptist was a type of forerunner of Christ. JTB baptized in water, to point to the One who would come after him, and baptize by the Holy Spirit.

We were speaking of WATER baptism, I don't think anyone thinks that Jesus didn't baptize with the HS.

[RickD]

Sam1995 wrote:
That's a very good question, why did Jesus not actually baptize anyone? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that He would be baptizing people in his own name? Or would that be irrelevant?

Sam, I argue that Jesus did baptize.

See Mark 1:7-8, where John the Baptist said: 7 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” emphasis in bold mine

Maybe Jesus didn't baptize in water, because John the Baptist was a type of forerunner of Christ. JTB baptized in water, to point to the One who would come after him, and baptize by the Holy Spirit.

We were speaking of WATER baptism, I don't think anyone thinks that Jesus didn't baptize with the HS.

Paul, I realize that you mean water baptism. I was just giving my opinion of why Jesus didn't baptize with water. Sam asked why, I responded. John the Baptist couldn't save, and neither can water baptism. Jesus Christ saves, and He saves at the moment a believer places his faith in Christ, and is baptized by the HS.

[domokunrox]

let's look at John 3:5-6: 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his Jewish birth (born of water) was not going to save him. What Jesus says in verse 6, removes any doubt that Jesus wasn't talking about water baptism. Nicodemus wasn't understanding the spiritual. He was stuck on the physical. Nicodemus didn't understand how someone could be born twice.

Again, you got an improper exegesis.
Jesus was literally answering his question

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

Nicodemus needed clarification on what it means to be "born again", not simply being born....because....THE FACT THAT HE IS BORN IS NOT IN QUESTION AND IS INDISPUTABLE.
For example:
If you asked me, "How do I apply for college again?"
To which I then answer, "Fill out a NEW application, bring it to the admin office for processing"

Not ONCE did we mention any other application, did we?

Infact, what if I clarified further with a trivial statement?
"Your old application is old. This new application is new."

In order for your objection to stand, you have to show that Nicodemus' status as a mortal man was in question or that they were completely oblivious as to what being mortal was.
However, his mortality was not in question. Rather, how one is born again was the question being asked. If his mortality was in question, there would be 2 separate questions, 2 separate answers, 2 different subjects + predicates. However, there is only 1.

Also, do you mind explaining the difference between born of water and born of women according to your view?
Luke 7:28

28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

Dom, I'm not saying that water baptism is done in some kind of symbolic water. Water baptism(immersion in water) identifies a believer with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Water baptized believers don't literally die, get buried, and get resurrected during a water baptism ceremony. It's symbolic.

Water baptism is also an outward profession of what has happened inwardly in a believer. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the inward reality, water baptism is the outward profession of that reality. The inward baptism of the Holy Spirit which happens when one professes faith in Christ.
Again, God saves by the power of the Holy Spirit in a believer. Water baptism, done by hands of men, is a symbol of the true, saving baptism, done by the hands of God.(And yes, "hands" of God is also symbolic )

Where is this exegesis at? Everything in the gospels, acts, and so forth is contrary to everything you've stated.

Dom, living water in John 7:38 is a symbol of the Holy Spirit in a believer. Just like baptism in water symbolizes Holy Spirit baptism.

The water doesn't symbolize anything, Rick. My point is, living water is not water
An improper analogy.



Also, in regards to Jesus not baptizing anyone. Might want to look further down the page, guys.
John 3:22-23

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized

Again, look at verse 26

26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.”

[RickD]

Dom, I'm not getting into another pissing match with you about baptismal regeneration. I'll let others decide if they believe salvation comes by the Grace of God through faith in Christ. Or, if salvation comes through faith in Christ plus...

And Dom, you need to look a little further down:
John 4:2:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),



By Christ not baptizing anyone in water, maybe He was showing that the power to save wasn't in the water itself. Among other reasons why Jesus didn't baptize in water was so people wouldn't wrongly believe that it was the water that saves. Unfortunately, there are still some who claim baptismal regeneration.

[Sam1995]

Salvation comes by grace through faith. NOT by water baptism. Rick, I agree with what you say about Jesus baptizing people in the HS, but baptizing with water is a different story, I guess it didn't really matter to him and there were other people doing that anyway.

SB

[domokunrox]

Dom, I'm not getting into another pissing match with you about baptismal regeneration. I'll let others decide if they believe salvation comes by the Grace of God through faith in Christ. Or, if salvation comes through faith in Christ plus...

Absolutely, Rick. I think the best thing we can do is get all the information out there, don't you think? I'm not interested in a "pissing match" as you call it. I simply as supporting my view and bringing my findings to share.
If you disagree with it, then you disagree.
You say that you'll let others decide. I say, let God decide for us. He knows better.

And Dom, you need to look a little further down:
John 4:2:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),
By Christ not baptizing anyone in water, maybe He was showing that the power to save wasn't in the water itself. Among other reasons why Jesus didn't baptize in water was so people wouldn't wrongly believe that it was the water that saves. Unfortunately, there are still some who claim baptismal regeneration.

And again, the water does not save.
Its interesting that you bring up the next chapter.
Look at verse 1

Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

Regardless of your view on baptism. The fact is, baptisms did indeed happen and he commanded his disciples to do it.

Unless, are you arguing that Jesus' authority is only to do as I do, and never do as I say?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

[RickD]

Salvation comes by grace through faith. NOT by water baptism. Rick, I agree with what you say about Jesus baptizing people in the HS, but baptizing with water is a different story, I guess it didn't really matter to him and there were other people doing that anyway.

SB

But why didn't Christ baptize in water? If we don't want to speculate, at least it's important that the bible doesn't say Jesus ever did baptize in water.

[Sam1995]

Salvation comes by grace through faith. NOT by water baptism. Rick, I agree with what you say about Jesus baptizing people in the HS, but baptizing with water is a different story, I guess it didn't really matter to him and there were other people doing that anyway.

SB

But why didn't Christ baptize in water? If we don't want to speculate, at least it's important that the bible doesn't say Jesus ever did baptize in water.

Maybe it wasn't important for Him to do so?

SB