Baptism

[Sam1995]

Do you not believe in the power of the HS?

Sam, seriously? Why would you that? And what do you mean by the power of the HS? have you personally healed anyone, raised someone from the dead? What kind of power are you speaking of? Be specific.

First of all, you seem quite offended by the way I worded that, let me apologize for that! I definitely did not mean to offend you at all my friend!

Sure, I see your point completely. Yes, I am speaking about the supernatural power of the HS, and if you would include the fact that I was one of three people to pray for healing over a young man my age at a conference during the summer, he found out he was healed when he went to the doctors after the conference had ended. He'd been struggling with a knee problem for quite some time, so if you would include that, then sure, I have

As well as that, I think it would be slightly mad to say that if a person goes over and prays for a dead person, if they do not come back to life then the power of the HS is not within you, which seems to be what you are saying. If this is the case, then you must also claim to know fully and wholly the plan of God for that dead person's life, and know that they are to be raised back to life because it is part of God's plan.

So, in specific. I am speaking of the supernatural power of the HS, to heal, to prophecy, to speak in tongues, etc.

SB

[jlay]

Do you not believe in the power of the HS?

Sam, seriously? Why would you that? And what do you mean by the power of the HS? have you personally healed anyone, raised someone from the dead? What kind of power are you speaking of? Be specific.

First of all, you seem quite offended by the way I worded that, let me apologize for that! I definitely did not mean to offend you at all my friend!

Sure, I see your point completely. Yes, I am speaking about the supernatural power of the HS, and if you would include the fact that I was one of three people to pray for healing over a young man my age at a conference during the summer, he found out he was healed when he went to the doctors after the conference had ended. He'd been struggling with a knee problem for quite some time, so if you would include that, then sure, I have

As well as that, I think it would be slightly mad to say that if a person goes over and prays for a dead person, if they do not come back to life then the power of the HS is not within you, which seems to be what you are saying. If this is the case, then you must also claim to know fully and wholly the plan of God for that dead person's life, and know that they are to be raised back to life because it is part of God's plan.

So, in specific. I am speaking of the supernatural power of the HS, to heal, to prophecy, to speak in tongues, etc.

SB

Sam, I absolutely believe in the HS. And I believe every miracle recorded in the scriptures. What I do not believe is that people are living in the Apostolic period. People are not healed by being in your shadow. I appreciate your account, although the condition and circumstances are vague. If God healed him, then praise God. But if he was healed it was because the prayer of faith was given, not because one of you three was a healer.
To put it bluntly, there are all kinds of people claiming HS power, but little evidence to back it up. This simply was not the case with the early apostolic church.

[PaulSacramento]

The HS MAY work through people, but it is still the HS doing it, NOT them.
Glory be the God, Christ and the HS always and never to any man.

In regards to baptism, it is the same thing, it is NOT the person doing the baptist that conveys the HS, it is God and Christ and it falls on the person being baptized to ask and receive it.

As for any gifts of the HS:
Some people do indeed receive them, if such was predestined by God of course, but NOT all do.
It is important to NOT look for these things as "signs" of the HS and think that unless one has them they do not have the HS.
God gives the gifts of the HS to who HE has ordained and gives the HS to ALL that ask for it in the name of Christ and with faith in Christ.

[Sam1995]

Do you not believe in the power of the HS?

Sam, seriously? Why would you that? And what do you mean by the power of the HS? have you personally healed anyone, raised someone from the dead? What kind of power are you speaking of? Be specific.

First of all, you seem quite offended by the way I worded that, let me apologize for that! I definitely did not mean to offend you at all my friend!

Sure, I see your point completely. Yes, I am speaking about the supernatural power of the HS, and if you would include the fact that I was one of three people to pray for healing over a young man my age at a conference during the summer, he found out he was healed when he went to the doctors after the conference had ended. He'd been struggling with a knee problem for quite some time, so if you would include that, then sure, I have

As well as that, I think it would be slightly mad to say that if a person goes over and prays for a dead person, if they do not come back to life then the power of the HS is not within you, which seems to be what you are saying. If this is the case, then you must also claim to know fully and wholly the plan of God for that dead person's life, and know that they are to be raised back to life because it is part of God's plan.

So, in specific. I am speaking of the supernatural power of the HS, to heal, to prophecy, to speak in tongues, etc.

SB

Sam, I absolutely believe in the HS. And I believe every miracle recorded in the scriptures. What I do not believe is that people are living in the Apostolic period. People are not healed by being in your shadow. I appreciate your account, although the condition and circumstances are vague. If God healed him, then praise God. But if he was healed it was because the prayer of faith was given, not because one of you three was a healer.
To put it bluntly, there are all kinds of people claiming HS power, but little evidence to back it up. This simply was not the case with the early apostolic church.

I know you absolutely believe in the HS. I never said that people are being healed by being in my shadow, that would be my implying that I am God and that is definitely not the case. I understand the circumstances are vague, but there is no other plausible explanation other than the simple fact that he was healed by God. Yes, this more than likely was not because I am a healer, but whether or not I am a healer is not what I originally intended to mean by what I said, I mean exactly as you say in your response, a prayer of faith was given, heard and responded to in a divine way by God, that is still the power of the HS as you well know.

That's very true, there are so many false prophets and healers which we must look out for, but I'm not sure I would rule out the fact that we as people still have the potential to change this world the way the apostles did in terms of healing, prophecy and other spiritual gifts. It is a very interesting topic!

SB

[Byblos]

The HS MAY work through people, but it is still the HS doing it, NOT them.
Glory be the God, Christ and the HS always and never to any man.

In regards to baptism, it is the same thing, it is NOT the person doing the baptist that conveys the HS, it is God and Christ and it falls on the person being baptized to ask and receive it.

As for any gifts of the HS:
Some people do indeed receive them, if such was predestined by God of course, but NOT all do.
It is important to NOT look for these things as "signs" of the HS and think that unless one has them they do not have the HS.
God gives the gifts of the HS to who HE has ordained and gives the HS to ALL that ask for it in the name of Christ and with faith in Christ.

Paul sometimes you sound like such a Catholic.

[PaulSacramento]

The HS MAY work through people, but it is still the HS doing it, NOT them.
Glory be the God, Christ and the HS always and never to any man.

In regards to baptism, it is the same thing, it is NOT the person doing the baptist that conveys the HS, it is God and Christ and it falls on the person being baptized to ask and receive it.

As for any gifts of the HS:
Some people do indeed receive them, if such was predestined by God of course, but NOT all do.
It is important to NOT look for these things as "signs" of the HS and think that unless one has them they do not have the HS.
God gives the gifts of the HS to who HE has ordained and gives the HS to ALL that ask for it in the name of Christ and with faith in Christ.

Paul sometimes you sound like such a Catholic.

I am, not a roman catholic mind you ( I don't agree with the papacy) but if there is a denomination I tend to agree most with, it is the catholic one.
Old catholic I guess.
It makes sense since Augustine is my favorite patristic theologist.

[Byblos]

The HS MAY work through people, but it is still the HS doing it, NOT them.
Glory be the God, Christ and the HS always and never to any man.

In regards to baptism, it is the same thing, it is NOT the person doing the baptist that conveys the HS, it is God and Christ and it falls on the person being baptized to ask and receive it.

As for any gifts of the HS:
Some people do indeed receive them, if such was predestined by God of course, but NOT all do.
It is important to NOT look for these things as "signs" of the HS and think that unless one has them they do not have the HS.
God gives the gifts of the HS to who HE has ordained and gives the HS to ALL that ask for it in the name of Christ and with faith in Christ.

Paul sometimes you sound like such a Catholic.

I am, not a roman catholic mind you ( I don't agree with the papacy) but if there is a denomination I tend to agree most with, it is the catholic one.
Old catholic I guess.
It makes sense since Augustine is my favorite patristic theologist.

You had to ruin it, didn't ya.

[PaulSacramento]

The HS MAY work through people, but it is still the HS doing it, NOT them.
Glory be the God, Christ and the HS always and never to any man.

In regards to baptism, it is the same thing, it is NOT the person doing the baptist that conveys the HS, it is God and Christ and it falls on the person being baptized to ask and receive it.

As for any gifts of the HS:
Some people do indeed receive them, if such was predestined by God of course, but NOT all do.
It is important to NOT look for these things as "signs" of the HS and think that unless one has them they do not have the HS.
God gives the gifts of the HS to who HE has ordained and gives the HS to ALL that ask for it in the name of Christ and with faith in Christ.

Paul sometimes you sound like such a Catholic.

I am, not a roman catholic mind you ( I don't agree with the papacy) but if there is a denomination I tend to agree most with, it is the catholic one.
Old catholic I guess.
It makes sense since Augustine is my favorite patristic theologist.

You had to ruin it, didn't ya.

I prostate myself before you my liege !

[1over137]

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

[jlay]

<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%203.36" target="_blank" data-reference="John 3.36" data-version="nasb95">John 3:36</a>
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matthew%2028.19" target="_blank" data-reference="Matthew 28.19" data-version="nasb95">Matthew 28:19</a>
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

Would you care to elaborate?

[Sam1995]

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

Baptism in water? or the HS?

SB

[1over137]

<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%203.36" target="_blank" data-reference="John 3.36" data-version="nasb95">John 3:36</a>
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matthew%2028.19" target="_blank" data-reference="Matthew 28.19" data-version="nasb95">Matthew 28:19</a>
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

Would you care to elaborate?

Here is what I see when I look on the verses:
We are to obey the Son, if not we will not see life (John). Disciples are told to baptize people in the name of Father, Son, Spirit (Matthew). I assume that Jesus also wants people to be baptized. Why then He would order disciples to baptize people?
So, Jesus wants us to be baptized. If we are not we are disobedient.

My two cents.

[domokunrox]

That is a bit of a loaded question Dom, and I think you know it.
There is not any question regarding the signs of the Apostolic church. Did Peter have to stop and pray before he healed the begger? These signs WILL accompany. Now, either the signs are following or they are not. Are you saying you've never known anyone sick? v.18?
Verification? Are you saying that you believe Benny Hinn and loads of other phonies, or do you verify?

No, its not a loaded question, jlay. You're begging the question, and I'm just giving you all the warnings to backtrack your argument because you've argued yourself into a very bad corner.

Allow me to go ahead and quote the scriptures again. Read it VERY CAREFULLY. I'll even bold and underline the really critical parts you shouldn't miss.
Matthew 28

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [f]always, even to the end of the age.”

Surely, you know what a disciple is, right?

Heres more in 1 John 5

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

What support are you arguing for here? Citing the verse isn't an argument. You are again making assumptions about the word Baptizo. We have been buried with him through baptism. Into what? Water? No. Death. Baptized INTO Christ.

I've made no such assumptions about the word Baptizo.
Jesus TAUGHT baptism in water, sir.
Lets check out John 3, again.

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized

Paul supports my position in Romans 6

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Christ is NOT DEATH, sir. You are mistaken.
John 20

31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

[1over137]

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

Baptism in water? or the HS?

SB

I would need to look at Mark more closely. But when I look at Matthew 28:19 and John 3:36, well, ...

[Sam1995]

Mark 16
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Isn't conclusion obvious?

Baptism in water? or the HS?

SB

I would need to look at Mark more closely. But when I look at Matthew 28:19 and John 3:36, well, ...

The whole reason why we look upon baptism in water as a Biblical command is because of Matthew 28:19 - but the question I am asking is "is baptism in water a requirement for a person to be a Christian?" which I don't believe for a second that it is. I think it is a Biblical command and an expression of your love for Jesus as your saviour, but it isn't a requirement to get saved.

SB