Jehovah witnesses

[1stjohn0666]

Hebrews 1:10-2:5
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, what we are talking about

[PaulSacramento]

Hebrews 1:10-2:5
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, what we are talking about

You do realize that the writer of Hebrews is making a statement about Christ's divinity and how much higher than the angels he is, right?

God’s Final Word in His Son

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again,

“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says,

“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But of the Son He says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

[1stjohn0666]

Jesus and Paul are clearly NOT trinitarian!! Jesus would have corrected the Jewish scribe on the Shema "Hear O Israel the YHWH our Elohim is a 3 in 1 YHWH" But Jesus did no such thing!!
Paul opens all of his letters with something like this "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" <--- this NOT a trinitarian statement

[1stjohn0666]

Why doesn't the writer of Hebrews just say "Jesus is God" and get on with it?

[PaulSacramento]

Why doesn't the writer of Hebrews just say "Jesus is God" and get on with it?

You mean like John and Thomas say it?

[PaulSacramento]

Why didn't the OT prophets say that God would send His only begotten Son as Messiah?
Why didn't the OT prophets say that the HS would came and seal all those the believed in Christ and that Christ would be killed AND resurrected ( no 1st century jew thought of a crucified messiah)?

[1stjohn0666]

Where does John explicitly like Thomas say such a thing?
Thomas knew that God was "in" Jesus, that's how I see the text.

[1stjohn0666]

Why didn't the OT prophets say that God would send His only begotten Son as Messiah?
Why didn't the OT prophets say that the HS would came and seal all those the believed in Christ and that Christ would be killed AND resurrected ( no 1st century jew thought of a crucified messiah)?

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel"
Isa 53:3-7 "WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:3 Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.4 Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth."
Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn."
Joel 2:28-32 "And it shall come to pass after this, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy: your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.29 Moreover upon my servants and handmaids in those days I will pour forth my spirit.30 And I will shew wonders in heaven; and in earth, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke.31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood: before the great and dreadful day of the Lord doth come.32 And it shall come to pass, that every one that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion, and in Jerusalem shall be salvation, as the Lord hath said, and in the residue whom the Lord shall call."
All are OT prophecies
Peace

[PaulSacramento]

None of them state that the Messiah will be the only begotten son of God or that the messiah would be killed and resurrected.
None of them state that the HS will be the advocate to Gentiles.
In short, they are more cryptic than Paul's, John's and the writer of Hebrews statements on Jesus' divinity.
And yet you don't seem to have any issues with them.

Fact is that with all those prophecies, no 1st century Jew expected a crucified and resurrected messiah.

[1stjohn0666]

Psalm 2:6,7 pretty clear about sonship!!
All prophecies were yet to be confirmed with the new covenant!! For the most part to be rejected by the Jews.
According to Jews who don't believe Christ is the Messiah, they believe Jesus did not fulfill 4 Messianic prophecies.

[PaulSacramento]

Psalm 2:6,7 pretty clear about sonship!!
All prophecies were yet to be confirmed with the new covenant!! For the most part to be rejected by the Jews.
According to Jews who don't believe Christ is the Messiah, they believe Jesus did not fulfill 4 Messianic prophecies.

Yet they were aimed at David, as Jews would tell you.
According to standard Jewish interpretation of the messianic prophecies, no expected a "crucified messiah", period.
You asked why the NT writers didn't coem our and say that Jesus was God and yet they DID, John say it, Thomas says it in John, Paul says it a few times.
They say it explicitly (GOJ) and implicitly ( Col, Phil, Hebrews, Rev).
Far more clear than the OT prophets in regards tot he Messiah.
Perhaps the issue isn't what THEY wrote dude, perhaps the issue is that YOU choose to not understand it.
Much like the Jews that interpreted the OT messianic prophecies choose to not understand who they were pointing at.

[1stjohn0666]

Psalm 2:6,7 pretty clear about sonship!!
All prophecies were yet to be confirmed with the new covenant!! For the most part to be rejected by the Jews.
According to Jews who don't believe Christ is the Messiah, they believe Jesus did not fulfill 4 Messianic prophecies.

Yet they were aimed at David, as Jews would tell you.
According to standard Jewish interpretation of the messianic prophecies, no expected a "crucified messiah", period.
You asked why the NT writers didn't coem our and say that Jesus was God and yet they DID, John say it, Thomas says it in John, Paul says it a few times.
They say it explicitly (GOJ) and implicitly ( Col, Phil, Hebrews, Rev).
Far more clear than the OT prophets in regards tot he Messiah.
Perhaps the issue isn't what THEY wrote dude, perhaps the issue is that YOU choose to not understand it.
Much like the Jews that interpreted the OT messianic prophecies choose to not understand who they were pointing at.

Where does John say it? Where does Paul say it? If all you got is Heb 1:8 and a missing Heb 1:9 "therefore God YOUR God" <---- The only true God does not have a God!!
The other being Thomas... 2 scrips in all the bible that imply "calling" Jesus God.
I choose the unitary monotheistic faith like Jesus. It makes scrip easier to understand.

[PaulSacramento]

Psalm 2:6,7 pretty clear about sonship!!
All prophecies were yet to be confirmed with the new covenant!! For the most part to be rejected by the Jews.
According to Jews who don't believe Christ is the Messiah, they believe Jesus did not fulfill 4 Messianic prophecies.

Yet they were aimed at David, as Jews would tell you.
According to standard Jewish interpretation of the messianic prophecies, no expected a "crucified messiah", period.
You asked why the NT writers didn't coem our and say that Jesus was God and yet they DID, John say it, Thomas says it in John, Paul says it a few times.
They say it explicitly (GOJ) and implicitly ( Col, Phil, Hebrews, Rev).
Far more clear than the OT prophets in regards tot he Messiah.
Perhaps the issue isn't what THEY wrote dude, perhaps the issue is that YOU choose to not understand it.
Much like the Jews that interpreted the OT messianic prophecies choose to not understand who they were pointing at.

Where does John say it? Where does Paul say it? If all you got is Heb 1:8 and a missing Heb 1:9 "therefore God YOUR God" <---- The only true God does not have a God!!
The other being Thomas... 2 scrips in all the bible that imply "calling" Jesus God.
I choose the unitary monotheistic faith like Jesus. It makes scrip easier to understand.

Where does John say that Christ is God? John 1:1.
Where does Paul say that Christ and God are the same? Seriously? Colossians and Philipans.
Where does Hebrews say it? Hebrews 1:3
Dude...come now.
If YOU choose not to interpreta it that way, that is your choice but to say that it isn't said is just plain wrong.

By the way, Thomas says" The Lord of Me and the God of Me"
If, as you say, he meant that God was "inside" Jesus, guess what that makes Jesus?

[Byblos]

Psalm 2:6,7 pretty clear about sonship!!
All prophecies were yet to be confirmed with the new covenant!! For the most part to be rejected by the Jews.
According to Jews who don't believe Christ is the Messiah, they believe Jesus did not fulfill 4 Messianic prophecies.

Yet they were aimed at David, as Jews would tell you.
According to standard Jewish interpretation of the messianic prophecies, no expected a "crucified messiah", period.
You asked why the NT writers didn't coem our and say that Jesus was God and yet they DID, John say it, Thomas says it in John, Paul says it a few times.
They say it explicitly (GOJ) and implicitly ( Col, Phil, Hebrews, Rev).
Far more clear than the OT prophets in regards tot he Messiah.
Perhaps the issue isn't what THEY wrote dude, perhaps the issue is that YOU choose to not understand it.
Much like the Jews that interpreted the OT messianic prophecies choose to not understand who they were pointing at.

Where does John say it? Where does Paul say it? If all you got is Heb 1:8 and a missing Heb 1:9 "therefore God YOUR God" <---- The only true God does not have a God!!
The other being Thomas... 2 scrips in all the bible that imply "calling" Jesus God.
I choose the unitary monotheistic faith like Jesus. It makes scrip easier to understand.

Where does John say that Christ is God? John 1:1.
Where does Paul say that Christ and God are the same? Seriously? Colossians and Philipans.
Where does Hebrews say it? Hebrews 1:3
Dude...come now.
If YOU choose not to interpreta it that way, that is your choice but to say that it isn't said is just plain wrong.

By the way, Thomas says" The Lord of Me and the God of Me"
If, as you say, he meant that God was "inside" Jesus, guess what that makes Jesus?

Besides, how many times does something have to be said in scripture to be taken as truth? I don't know about you john but once is enough for me.

[PaulSacramento]

The issue of interpretation is one that well be with us til the second coming.
That is why we have such a varied view of human doctrines.
We must accept that not everyone will interpret difficult passages the same way, HOWEVER, when something is plainly stated it should be respected.
The reason that we do have a Trinity doctrine is because of what is explicit AND implicit in scripture about the nature of Jesus.