Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by 1stjohn0666 »

B. W. wrote: There is not one verse in all of scripture where "ADONAI" is YHWH.... YHWH is always spoken of as ADONAI.... Being "called" something does not imply identity!! I could "call" you a jerk, but are you really and honestly a jerk? Rather bold of you to claim that there is not one verse in all of scripture where "ADONAI" is YHWH…
I did not post that... there is NOT one verse that says in all of scripture where YHWH is ADONI
Try Psalm 110:1
א לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני--שב לימיני עד-אשית איביך הדם לרגליך http://www.levsoftware.com
log in and hear somebody speaking the tetragrammaton with the alternative ADONAI (YHWH) The 2nd Lord is ADONI (not YHWH) we can thank "vowel pointing" as you also produced in rebuttal.
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by PaulSacramento »

One can't read the GOJ and NOT see the Christological issues there.
Only the passages from Paul in Colossians and Philippians are more obvious in their implication that Jesus has a divine nature equal to God.
Both Paul and John make it clear that they do NOT view Jesus as being created since they both make distinctions on Him being "first born" or "only - begotten".
John makes it clear that He views Jesus and The Father sharing the same nature and that Jesus was accused of making Himself God on more than one occasion.
Thomas' proclamation that Jesus was the Lord of Him AND the God of Him makes it clear that He had FINALLY seen God in Christ ( goes back to when He had asked Jesus to show him the Father and Jesus replied, have I not been here with you?).
It is quote clear that the writer of the GOJ viewed Jesus as the incarnate word of God, that He viewed Jesus as being the same nature as The Father.

The issue here continues to be that 1John still views it this way: God = The Father.
To 1John the term God is the name of The Father.
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by B. W. »

This part of the Guidelines fits what you are doing Johnny666....
BoardGuidelines and Purposes wrote: This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civilized discussions on Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.
PaulSacramento aptly answered you and stated confirmation that the above mentioned guideline is what you are crossing.

BoardGuidelines and Purposes wrote:These discussion guidelines have been developed to outline the purpose of this board and expected conduct of those who participate. Administrators and moderators are responsible for enforcing the rules, and can moderate at their discretion to ensure that the desired spirit at these boards is maintained. Such moderation may include messages being edited or removed with or without warning, and/or posters being suspended or banned.
1stjohnny666 - as evidence by all your posts, you are only here solely to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs, as well as trying to discredit Christianity. You have been amply answered, responded too by many responders, and proven many times by them that your point of view is incorrect in a theologically sound manner. It is you whom refuse to see the obvious and continue to try to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs, and discredit Christianity.

We graciously gave you ample time that some may say was too gracious to spout your points of view in expectation that the Lord may get through to you and save our soul. You are now walking a very thin line. So hereby be warned and note that this Forum may not be for you. Try to earn your salvation elsewhere...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by B. W. »

1stjohn0666 wrote:....Try Psalm 110:1
א לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני--שב לימיני עד-אשית איביך הדם לרגליך
http://www.levsoftware.com
log in and hear somebody speaking the tetragrammaton with the alternative ADONAI (YHWH) The 2nd Lord is ADONI (not YHWH) we can thank "vowel pointing" as you also produced in rebuttal.

I'll let the Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament answer Psalms 110 for you...
Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament wrote:
Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament Regarding Psalms 110:

In Psa20:1-9 and Psa21:1-13 we see at once in the openings that what we have before us is the language of the people concerning their king. Here לאדני in Psa110:1 does not favour this, and נאם is decidedly against it. The former does not favour it, for it is indeed correct that the subject calls his king “my lord,” e.g., 1Sa22:12, although the more exact form of address is “my lord the king,” e.g., 1Sa24:9; but if the people are speaking here, what is the object of the title of honour being expressed as if coming from the mouth of an individual, and why not rather, as in Ps 20-21, למלך or למשׁיחו? נאם is, however, decisive against the supposition that it is an Israelite who here expresses himself concerning the relation of his king to Jahve.

For it is absurd to suppose that an Israelite speaking in the name of the people would begin in the manner of the prophets with נאם, more particularly since this נאם ה placed thus at the head of the discourse is without any perfectly analogous example (1Sa2:30; Isa1:24 are only similar) elsewhere, and is therefore extremely important. In general this opening position of נאם, even in cases where other genitives that יהוה follow, is very rare; נאם Num24:3., Num24:15, of David in 2Sa23:1, of Agur in Pro30:1, and always (even in Psa36:2) in an oracular signification.

Moreover, if one from among the people were speaking, the declaration ought to be a retrospective glance at a past utterance of God. But, first, the history knows nothing of any such divine utterance; and secondly, נאם ה always introduces God as actually speaking, to which even the passage cited by Hofmann to the contrary, Num14:28, forms no exception. Thus it will consequently not be a past utterance of God to which the poet glances back here, but one which David has just now heard ἐν πνεύματι (Mat22:43), and is therefore not a declaration of the people concerning David, but of David concerning Christ.

The unique character of the declaration confirms this. Of the king of Israel it is said that he sits on the throne of Jahve (1Ch29:23), viz., as visible representative of the invisible King (1Ch28:5); Jahve, however, commands the person here addressed to take his place at His right hand. The right hand of a king is the highest place of honour, 1Ki2:19.

(Note: Cf. the custom of the old Arabian kings to have their viceroy (ridf) sitting at their right hand, Monumenta antiquiss. hist. Arabum, ed. Eichhorn, p. 220.)

Here the sitting at the right hand signifies not merely an idle honour, but reception into the fellowship of God as regards dignity and dominion, exaltation to a participation in God's reigning (βασιλεύειν, 1Co15:25). Just as Jahve sits enthroned in the heavens and laughs at the rebels here below, so shall he who is exalted henceforth share this blessed calm with Him, until He subdues all enemies to him, and therefore makes him the unlimited, universally acknowledged ruler. עַד as in Hos10:12, for עַד־כִּי or עַד־אֲשֶׁר, does not exclude the time that lies beyond, but as in Psa112:8, Gen49:10, includes it, and in fact so that it at any rate marks the final subjugation of the enemies as a turning-point with which something else comes about (vid., Act3:21; 1Co15:28). הֲדֹם is an accusative of the predicate.
The enemies shall come to lie under his feet (1 Kings 5:17), his feet tread upon the necks of the vanquished (Jos10:24), so that the resistance that is overcome becomes as it were the dark ground upon which the glory of his victorious rule arises. For the history of time ends with the triumph of good over evil, - not, however, with the annihilation of evil, but with its subjugation.

This is the issue, inasmuch as absolute omnipotence is effectual on behalf of and through the exalted Christ. In Psa110:2, springing from the utterance of Jahve, follow words expressing a prophetic prospect. Zion is the imperial abode of the great future King (Psa2:6). מַטֵּה עֻזְּךָ (cf. Jer48:17; Eze19:11-14) signifies “the sceptre (as insignia and the medium of exercise) of the authority delegated to thee” (1Sa2:10, Mic5:3).

Jahve will stretch this sceptre far forth from Zion: no goal is mentioned up to which it shall extend, but passages like Zec9:10 show how the prophets understand such Psalms. In Psa110:2 follow the words with which Jahve accompanies this extension of the dominion of the exalted One. Jahve will lay all his enemies at his feet, but not in such a manner that he himself remains idle in the matter. Thus, then, having come into the midst of the sphere (בֶּקֶרֶב) of his enemies, shall he reign, forcing them to submission and holding them down. We read this רָדָה in a Messianic connection in Psa72:8. So even in the prophecy of Balaam (Num24:19), where the sceptre (Num24:17) is an emblem of the Messiah Himself.
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by 1stjohn0666 »

The commentary clearly makes a "distinction" as I do, YHWH is not "the exalted" Jesus. God does not need to be exalted to a superior position since God's position has always been that of the superior position.
1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by 1stjohn0666 »

PaulSacramento wrote:
The issue here continues to be that 1John still views it this way: God = The Father.
To 1John the term God is the name of The Father.
1 Cor 8:6 in the NT by Paul says God is the Father.
Isa 64:8 in the OT YHWH is Father.
Clear evidence with NO CODED MESSAGE say that the Father is God!!
The very words of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ "My Father your Father, My God and your God" Jesus' Father is also Jesus' God.
1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by 1stjohn0666 »

Maybe this "half-baked" wanna be Christian forum and discussion is strictly for those of the "Catholic" faith!! Orthodoxy comes from that branch. Since then we have had many reformers one being Servetus who who was unitarian and the cowardly John Calvin had the church "murder" him because he did not believe the way those guys did. Of all 30+ thousand denominations, which 1 is the "orthodox" version here? Do you people not know that the Christian faith originated with the unitary monotheistic Jews "Judaism"
Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by Sam1995 »

1stjohn0666 wrote:Maybe this "half-baked" wanna be Christian forum and discussion is strictly for those of the "Catholic" faith!! Orthodoxy comes from that branch. Since then we have had many reformers one being Servetus who who was unitarian and the cowardly John Calvin had the church "murder" him because he did not believe the way those guys did. Of all 30+ thousand denominations, which 1 is the "orthodox" version here? Do you people not know that the Christian faith originated with the unitary monotheistic Jews "Judaism"
I'm loosely pentecostal and I get along just fine here, so I'm not sure there's much truth in what you say! Stop being so close minded! If people don't agree with you, that's fine...many people disagree over doctrine and scripture, but don't condemn others the way you're doing here, there is no reason to do that so why do it?

Many of us are followers of God here and some others are thinking skeptics and atheists...Thus we are on the same level, don't treat people like they are intellectually beneath you 1stjohn0666...

God bless

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis
User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by Byblos »

1stjohn0666 wrote:Maybe this "half-baked" wanna be Christian forum and discussion is strictly for those of the "Catholic" faith!! Orthodoxy comes from that branch. Since then we have had many reformers one being Servetus who who was unitarian and the cowardly John Calvin had the church "murder" him because he did not believe the way those guys did. Of all 30+ thousand denominations, which 1 is the "orthodox" version here? Do you people not know that the Christian faith originated with the unitary monotheistic Jews "Judaism"
:pound: :pound: :pound:

Yeah that's the ticket, john. When all else fails just hit them with the catholic charge. Well it worked at least for one :wave: .
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by RickD »

1stjohn wrote:
Maybe this "half-baked" wanna be Christian forum and discussion is strictly for those of the "Catholic" faith!! Orthodoxy comes from that branch. Since then we have had many reformers one being Servetus who who was unitarian and the cowardly John Calvin had the church "murder" him because he did not believe the way those guys did. Of all 30+ thousand denominations, which 1 is the "orthodox" version here? Do you people not know that the Christian faith originated with the unitary monotheistic Jews "Judaism"
John, there is no "one" orthodox denomination that this board recognizes. But Belief in the deity of Christ is certainly something that is essential and orthodox. And, no John. The Christian faith did not originate with the Jews. The Christian faith originated with the person of Jesus Christ. " Christianity" means nothing without faith in God, who took on the form of a man in Jesus Christ. Until you admit that, you are lost in your sins. I can only pray that one day God will make that clear to you. And, I am saddened that none of us here were able to get through to you.
Sam wrote:
I'm loosely pentecostal and I get along just fine here
Sam, we didn't know this! From this point forward, you will be teased relentlessly because of your pentecostalismness! :lol:
Just FYI, my wife considers herself "pentecostal", and I still love her despite that. :pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9224
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by PaulSacramento »

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
The issue here continues to be that 1John still views it this way: God = The Father.
To 1John the term God is the name of The Father.
1 Cor 8:6 in the NT by Paul says God is the Father.
Isa 64:8 in the OT YHWH is Father.
Clear evidence with NO CODED MESSAGE say that the Father is God!!
The very words of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ "My Father your Father, My God and your God" Jesus' Father is also Jesus' God.
Of course The Father is God, no one is denying or arguing that.
What you seem to have a hard time grasping is the nature of Jesus so I will ask you plainly:
DO Jesus and God share the same nature?
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by B. W. »

1stjohn0666 wrote:Maybe this "half-baked" wanna be Christian forum and discussion is strictly for those of the "Catholic" faith!! Orthodoxy comes from that branch. Since then we have had many reformers one being Servetus who who was unitarian and the cowardly John Calvin had the church "murder" him because he did not believe the way those guys did. Of all 30+ thousand denominations, which 1 is the "orthodox" version here? Do you people not know that the Christian faith originated with the unitary monotheistic Jews "Judaism"
Please note for the record that 1stjohn0666 comment above is in clear violation of Board Guideline/Purposes....

Next, to answer 1stjohn0666 assertions I am posting this link as it answers all of his objections. In my own OT Concepts of God Thread, I pointed out the Hebrew usage of the word Malak and shown the preincarnate Jesus speaking in the OT. Now the link takes you to a website that answers Islamic arguments against Christianity. However it contains much thorough details on the Deity of Christ from Psalms 110 and elsewhere. It is quite lengthy and disproves Johnny666 assertion that adoni was never used to denote YHWH. Link is as follows:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/psalm110_1.htm

The author of this article, Mr. Samoun, goes in to great detail on this topic and proves, as I have on another thread that adoni is most certainly used denoting YHWH.

Here is a quote from Mr. Samoun's website:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/psalm110_1.htm
Christians often appeal to Psalm 110:1 to prove that the Hebrew Bible teaches that Yahweh is multi-Personal, that there is more than one Person who is Yahweh God, and that the Messiah is God. The text in question reads:

"The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’" NIV

According to the Lord Jesus and the other NT writers this is a Psalm of David which he uttered in relation to Christ’s ascension into heavenly glory:

"And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, ‘How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet." David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?’ And the great throng heard him gladly." Mark 12:35-36

"Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." Acts 2:33-36

On the basis of the above texts, Christians believe that Jesus is David’s Lord since he is the Christ. And since Yahweh is David’s Lord, Jesus must therefore be Yahweh God.
Many anti-Trinitarians claim that this is an erroneous conclusion or assumption since a careful reading of the Hebrew text disproves such a notion. The Hebrew uses two different words which English translations render as Lord:

"The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’" English Standard Version (ESV)

The words in Hebrew which the above version translates LORD and Lord are actually Yahweh and Adoni, two different words with two obviously different meanings (or so the argument goes)…..

……The assertion is that the use of two different words automatically proves that the Psalmist had two completely different beings in view, and that the second Lord refers to someone who isn’t God. The main problem with this claim is that just because the Psalmist used two different terms it doesn't necessarily follow that he had two beings in mind who were of completely different essences, i.e. one is Divine while the other is human or angelic. We do agree that the Psalmist had two distinct and different Persons in view, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are of different essences or share different beings. After all, isn't it true that David’s Lord is Yahweh God?

"I say to the LORD, ‘You are my Lord; I have no good apart from you.’" Psalm 16:2
"Awake and rouse yourself for my vindication, for my cause, my God and my Lord!" Psalm 35:23

And wouldn't this open up the possibility that the use of Adoni for the second occurrence of Lord is a reference to Yahweh God as David’s Sovereign, David’s Lord? It is quite possible, and yet the anti-Trinitarian says it isn’t very probable.

The reason given for why it is highly improbable that David was addressing Yahweh is because of the fact that anti-Trinitarians claim that the word Adoni is never once used for God in the Hebrew Bible. It is always used for human beings or angels. Moreover, they also claim that David could have used the word Adonai (literally, "Lords" or "my Lords") if he had intended for his audience to understand that he was addressing Yahweh as his sovereign since this word is normally used of God.

These claims are erroneous for several reasons. First, in ancient, biblical Hebrew there were no vowel markings to distinguish between the different forms of the word Adon, the word from where we get Adoni and Adonai, which means that the verses would have read the same way since they have the same consonants, making this a moot point.

Second, just because Adoni is used elsewhere for human beings or angels doesn't mean that David didn't use it in reference to God. Psalm 110:1 may actually be a case where the word is being used for Yahweh God, making it the exception to the norm. One cannot simply dismiss this as a possibility on a priori grounds, but must be decided by first looking and exegeting the text itself before looking elsewhere.

Third, the word Adoni is used for the Angel of Yahweh in Judges 6:13 who clearly isn't a mere creature. This particular Angel is actually a manifestation of God himself, just as the immediate context shows:

"Now the angel of the LORD came and SAT under the terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, ‘The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valor.’ And Gideon said to him, ‘Please, my Lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, "Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?" But now the LORD has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.’ AND THE LORD TURNED TO HIM AND SAID, ‘Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?’ And he said to him, ‘Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.’ AND THE LORD SAID TO HIM, ‘But I will be with you, and you shall strike the Midianites as one man.’ And he said to him, ‘If now I have found favor in your eyes, then show me a sign that it is you who speaks with me. Please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present and set it before you.’ And he said, ‘I will stay till you return.’ So Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour. The meat he put in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and brought them to him under the terebinth and presented them. AND THE ANGEL OF GOD SAID TO HIM, ‘Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.’ And he did so. Then the angel of the LORD reached out the tip of the staff that was IN HIS HAND and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes. And fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of the LORD vanished from his sight. Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the LORD. And Gideon said, ‘Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face. ’ BUT THE LORD SAID TO HIM, ‘Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.’" Judges 6:11-23

People normally become afraid of dying after seeing God face to face, and yet here Gideon is afraid because he saw the Angel face to face (cf. Genesis 32:30; Exodus 33:20; Judges 13:22). What this basically means is that the Angel was Yahweh himself who both appeared and spoke directly to Gideon, which means that Gideon was addressing Yahweh as his Lord or Adoni.
In another place, Joshua sees a man wielding a sword and addressed him as Adoni after he realized who this man actually was:

"When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you for us, or for our adversaries?’ And he said, ‘No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?’ And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so." Joshua 5:13-15

Compare the above with the following texts:

"Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And THE ANGEL OF THE LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, ‘I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.’ When THE LORD SAW that he turned aside to see, GOD CALLED TO HIM OUT OF THE BUSH, ‘Moses, Moses!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ Then he said, ‘Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.’ And he said, ‘I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God." Exodus 3:1-6

"Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out," Exodus 23:20-23

The man wielding the sword, the man who leads the armies of the Lord is actually the Angel of Yahweh sent ahead of Israel to fight their enemies, the One whom God says has his very own name within him and who can forgive sins, a divine prerogative. Putting it simply, the Adoni who Joshua saw was the Angel of God who happens to also be God Almighty himself! It is little wonder that Joshua fell down and worshiped him.

Here is one final example where Adoni is used for a Divine Being:

"On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month of Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, son of Iddo, saying, ‘I saw in the night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in the glen, and behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses. Then I said, ‘What are these, my lord?’ The angel who talked with me said to me, ‘I will show you what they are.’ So the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered, ‘These are they whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth.’ And they answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees, and said, ‘We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth remains at rest.’" Zechariah 1:7-11

Zechariah provides enough clues that identify this specific Angel as being the very same Angel of Yahweh mentioned in the above texts:

"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?’ Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, ‘Remove the filthy garments from him.’ And to him he said, ‘Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.’" Zechariah 3:1-4
The inspired prophet identifies this Angel as Yahweh God who has the power to forgive or remove sins!

The above texts refute the assertion that Adoni is never used of Yahweh, since in at least three places Adoni is used for a man, for an Angel, whom the texts explicitly identify as Yahweh. More on this point a little later.

Noted Messianic and Hebrew scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown beautifully summarizes the above points in his response to some similar arguments raised by an anti-missionary named Rabbi Tovia Singer:

"There are at least three problems with his argument: First, he is incorrect in stating that ‘my lord’ is reserved ‘for the profane, never the sacred.’ Just look in Joshua 5:14, where Joshua addresses the angel of the Lord as ‘my lord’ (‘adoni). Yet this divine messenger is so holy that Joshua is commanded to remove the shoes from his feet because he is standing on holy ground, just as Moses was commanded when the angel of the Lord – representing Yahweh himself – appeared to him (Exod. 3:1-6). This is hardly a ‘profane’ rather than ‘sacred’ usage! Similar examples can be found in Judges 6:13 and Zechariah 1:9, among other places. In each of these, angels are addressed as ‘my lord,’ and in some of these cases, the angels bear the divine presence. Second, Singer’s whole argument hinges on the Masoretic vocalization, which did not reach its final form until the Middle Ages. As every student of Hebrew knows, biblical Hebrew was written with consonants and ‘vowel letters’ only; the vowel signs were added hundreds of years later. Yet both ‘adonai (used only for Yahweh) and ‘adoni (used for men and angels, as we just noted) are spelled identically in Hebrew, consisting of the four consonants ‘-d-n-y. How then can Rabbi Singer make such a dogmatic statement about the differences between these two forms in the Bible? His argument stands only if we accept the absolute authority of the Masoretic vocalization, which in some cases follows the original writing by almost two thousand years. Third, it is not really important whether we translate with ‘my Lord’ or ‘my lord,’ since Yeshua’s whole argument was simply that David called the Messiah ‘lord’ meaning that the Messiah had to more than David’s son. While many Christian translations do render ‘adoni as ‘my Lord’ in Psalm 110:1, they are careful to distinguish between the first Lord (i.e., LORD) and the second." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Messianic Prophecy Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 2003], Volume Three, pp. 137-138)

More importantly, the Psalmist does refer to his Lord as Adonai right in verse 5:

"The Lord (Adonai) is AT YOUR RIGHT HAND; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth. He will drink from the brook by the way; therefore he will lift up his head." Psalm 110:5-7

Here, Adonai is the One who will bring judgment against the nations and their kings, and will even drink from a brook! This clearly refers to David's Lord in verse 1, not just because he drinks from a brook of water, a human function, but also because he is said to be at "your right hand." In verse 1, this refers to the right hand of Yahweh:

"The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at MY right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’"

Now compare this again to verse 5:

"The Lord is at YOUR right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath."

"Your right hand" obviously refers to Yahweh's right hand. This means that the Lord or Adonai of verse 5 is actually David's Lord, the Messiah, since he is the one who is at Yahweh's right hand!
Moreover, the passage plainly states it is the Lord (Adonai) who executes judgment upon the nations and who will shatter kings in the day of his wrath which, according to the NT, is what Jesus will do when he returns to the earth:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left." Matthew 25:31-33
……These texts provide further affirmation that the Adonai of 110:5 is indeed the Messiah, David's Lord.

With the foregoing behind us, we can resume our discussion of Psalm 110:1. In order to exhaust all points of views and arguments, so as to not leave anything out, there are really only three possibilities for us to consider. David could have been addressing one of the following three persons or beings as his Lord:

1. Yahweh God.
2. An angel.
3. A human being.

.....The problem with claiming that David was addressing another human being as his Lord is that, according to the Hebrew Bible, David was the highest ranking human ruler in all the earth:
"Of old you spoke in a vision to your godly one, and said: I have granted help to one who is mighty; I have exalted one chosen from the people. I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him, … He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." Psalm 89:19-20, 26-27
Thus, there was no human ruler that was greater in prestige, power, authority, and rank than David. This means that the One he addressed as his Lord could not simply be a human figure, and we are therefore left with the other two options. Either David’s Lord was a Divine Being or an angelic creature; he couldn’t merely be a human sovereign.

.....Now someone may say that Jesus is merely a human being who was granted a higher rank than David, and therefore doesn’t prove that he is God. There are several problems with this explanation. First, Jesus’ question regarding this Psalm presupposes that the Christ is more than just a man:

"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, ‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet"? If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?’ And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions." Matthew 22:41-46

If the Christ were merely a man then he couldn’t be David’s Lord since the latter was his ancestor. In other words, Jesus is saying that David’s son couldn’t be his ancestor’s Lord since fathers are normally greater than their sons in position and authority.

Second, it will not do to say that because the Messiah would be greater in glory he would therefore be superior to David, since this assumes that David’s son is his Lord by virtue of his rank. Jesus’ point is basically that the Messiah’s rank or prestige still wouldn’t make him David’s Lord if he were merely a human son. After all, Solomon was granted greater riches, glory and wisdom than his father without this ever making him Lord over his father. In a similar manner, the Messiah’s prestige and glory wouldn’t be grounds for his becoming David’s sovereign.
Third, the NT documents teach that Jesus is God in essence, the very unique Son of God. Basically, this explains why David’s Son could be his Lord and supports our position that only One who is God could ever be sovereign over David.

To summarize the data, we discovered that:

1. According to the Lord Jesus and the NT writers David composed Psalm 110.
2. David, in Psalm 110, addressed some unnamed entity as his Lord, as his Sovereign.
3. Both the Lord Jesus and the NT documents also claim that David composed this Psalm about the Messiah. Hence, this is a Messianic Psalm composed about the greater David, the greater Solomon who was to come.
4. According to the Hebrew Bible, there was no human ruler higher in rank and authority than David who could therefore be his sovereign.
5. The Holy Bible also teaches that all of the kings sit/sat on God’s throne whereas angels do not, indicating that the former are/were greater than the latter.
6. This would therefore imply that David could not have been addressing any angel as his Lord, forcing us to conclude that he was actually addressing Yahweh.
7. Yet, since the Lord Jesus and his Apostles claimed that David was referring to the Christ, this means that the Christ (who is Jesus) is none other than Yahweh God himself.
8. But the same Psalm says that Yahweh was addressing David’s Lord, which implies that there are actually two distinct individuals that exist as God.

All scriptural quotations taken from the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Holy Bible, unless stated otherwise.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by B. W. »

To continue and explain to Mr Johnny666 more details regarding the above post - here is my take on this objections from own My post Old Testament Concept of God thread on this Forum:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Post Two

Before we continue this study, one must remember that our modern English Translations of the bible were translated from ancient Hebrew and Greek biblical text. For example, the words Lord/God in our English texts are just two words translated from several words that the biblical writers used to describe God.

Since we are primarily focusing on the Old Testament (OT), it is important to know several basic word meanings that the ancient Hebrew people used for the word 'God.' After this, we will have the basic understanding to begin this study in more detail.

Below is a basic list of such words as well as their basic meanings. Please do not try to read into these more than they mean in the following sections:
El = means God, and it is used in the singular form for God. Basically it is used in a generic sense as we would in English the word "God"

Elohim = This is the plural form of El and is capitalized when referring to the one true God. Actually this is a plural form translated as gods. It is in the plural form much as how in English we add a "s" at the end of a word. More on this word a bit later.

Yahweh = Name for God with the vowels of Adoni add to it so it can be pronounced. It is what God calls himself. (in some translations translated as Jehovah). In the Septuagint, the Greek word "Kurios" is used, which means Lord. That is why, when you see in bible OT translations with LORD in all caps it is the word YHWH known also as Yahweh.

Ruach = Spirit when referring to God, as in Genesis 1:2 (Rauch of Elohim brooded over...), think of this as the Holy Spirit. When used generically it means simply spirit, wind, power, etc...

Here are few other words often associated with the one true God that helps us understand and reveal who he is a bit better.

Malek - means messenger - one who bears a word and/or task. This actually is a generic word for "messenger" which is sent on a task. The messenger can be anybody or anything. It is often translated as angel because angels bear tasks for the Lord. IT DOES NOT MEAN ANGELIC BEINGS IN EVERY CASE IT IS USED. The context of scripture in which "Malek" is used reveals what type of messenger (Malek) is being referred too: either human, angelic or divine.

HaElohin = the word Elohim with the Hebrew definite article prefix ha attached to Elohim. "Ha" implies 'all the' - 'the sum mass' of whatever word it is attached too. Ha is a Hebrew definite article (the) and when used as a prefix it expresses - THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. Example: haElohim = THE God (Hint) The majestic unique God or "The Godhead" expressing all that God is in his entire being, all the totality of God, or in the case when used in a sentence describing false gods it usually reads all the gods using the plural of elohim.

Panim = means Presence(s) or Face(s). It is a unique word written in a dual grammar form. In other words, it can be used as either as a singular or as a plural form.

Adoni = means generically - Lord. When referring to God, it is capitalized. It is also a plural form but again there are rules of grammar that makes it mean either Lord or lords.
These are important word meanings to note as in our English translations we only use two words - Lord, God, while the ancient Hebrew people used several words for God.

Please use this second post as a reference to refer too. The study will continue below in next post:

Now let us look at the Word Elohim and some basic in grammar

Elohim is the plural noun form of God and thus reads as Gods. However, there is a rule of grammar called the Majestic Plural (I am not here to prove or disprove if Majestic Plurals exist, The Majestic Plural rule is good in that it avoids the error of tri-theism).

The Majestic Plural rule basically summed up like this: When a plural noun word is followed by another word in the singular case (verb, adverb, adjective, etc) the Plural Word is used in a Singular Form i.e. without the "s" attached.

However, this rule unravels because it is also used in conjunction with other plural words connected to the Majestic Plural form for the one true God. When a Plural noun such as Elohim is used with plural verb, adj, etc, the plural noun remains a plural and should not be used in the Majestic Plural case.

However, the Majestic Plural rule has exceptions to it when plurals are used with other plurals only when these refer to the Lord God of all heaven and earth. These exceptions were passed on to us by anti-Trinitarian scholars who do not believe in Christ and this is worthy of note for your own records as we explore this further later on but for now, let us continue.

Basically these scholars state that the majestic plural used in the case of Elohim was used to denote God's Majesty, Excellency, hence a majestic plural. However, what traditional rabbinic scholars failed to note in this definition is to include God's own uniqueness as spoken of by none other than God himself in the Old Testament into their definition:

Below is what the Lord says about himself. Why this is left out of the definition is unknown to me.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim), and there is none like Me JPS
Jeremiah 10:6, There is none like unto Thee, O LORD (Yahweh); Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might. JPS

Psalms 86:8, There is none like unto Thee among the gods, O Lord (Adonai), and there are no works like Thine. JPS


Traditional rabbinic scholars recognized God's majesty and excellence in the use of the Majestic Plural but left out his uniqueness in the definition. It makes me wonder if this was done in order to do away with any hint of the Trinity in the Old Testament.

However, by keeping 'uniqueness' out of the definition of the majestic plural use for - Elohim - Elohim is reduced to just mean majesty of excellence. But the Bible declares God is indeed unique and unlike anything one can comprehend! That should be added to the Majestic Plural use of Elohim but for anti-Trinitarians to do this would cause their belief system to begin to unravel.

God is one and He is also unlike all other gods "a Trinity". Bible translators capitalize the word God, when plural noun Elohim is used, without the "s" attached to God when Elohim is used along with other singular parts of speech (verbs, adverbs, adj, etc). This also helps is stick to the facts concerning God being one God whose nature is itself a Trinity echaud. (Read the Shema in Deuteronomy 6 sometime)

God is Incomprehensible

The bible teaches that God is, incomprehensible, in Job 11:7-9, and Job 36:26,and as it is written in Job 37:23, "The Almighty, whom we cannot find out"JPS

God himself declares in Isaiah 46:9, "Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL (Singular noun), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - Plural noun), and there is none like Me" JPS

There is none like the Lord! This should cause our hearts to rise in wonderment concerning God. So let me pose these simple questions to any anti-Trinitarian:

If God is simply a solitary singular one — then He has become comprehensible as One. How can that be when the bible states:

"Great is the LORD (Yahweh), and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable, : Psalms 145:3 JPS

If God is simply a singular one then would this not reduce him to the same level as a false god say, like Zeus? Thus would this not be you comprehending God as you would any other (false) singular deity with majestic excellence?

How can God’s incomprehensibility remain intact if he is reduced to a - yachid - (singular one) instead of as - echaud - (one, one of unity, a united one)?

The bible blatantly states that there are none like the Lord God, so then how can God be a unique singular solitary one in the same comprehensible frame as say 'Zeus' and still remain incomprehensible? Have you not made him comprehensible by making him a solitary singular deity? You say 'No' but I would like you to consider this: if comprehensible as a solitary single-alone-one then how can that be incomprehensible?

However, if God is, as we Trinitarians believe then:

God's incomprehensibleness is preserved and God's own statement that there are none else and none like him is likewise preserved!

Read again:

Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL-singular), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim - plural), and there is none like Me, Isaiah 46:9- JPS.

Yes, it is most difficult to simply define the Trinity in terms to completely understand and there is good reason for this is there not?

Job 36:26, Behold, God is great, beyond our knowledge. JPS

Reducing God to an easily defined oneness is not beyond our knowledge, is it? The Trinitarian concept of God is true to what the text in Job 32:26 states!

In fact, it appears that the ancient OT bible text are indeed thoroughly Trinitarian as revealed by the use of El, Elohim, Yahweh, Malek, Panim, etc! We will look further into how the bible uses the words Yahweh, Elohim, El, etc to express the majestic excellent uniqueness of the Lord.

We will also see how the incomprehensible God reveals himself and in doing so you'll discover the incomprehensibleness of God being one essence in three persons in the upcoming discourses.
-
-
-

From - http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 220#p62220

Post 7

The Malek of Yahweh


The Hebrew word Malek simply means; a messenger, a representative for (to do) a task.

This word is used often to describe angelic beings who bear a message and/or assigned to do task for God. Angelic beings are described as Cherubim (Ezekiel 10:1-15) and Seraphim (Isaiah 6:2-3). Angelic beings bear messages (Matt 1:20) and do task (Matt 28:2). They also sing, and use musical devices. There are archangels too and they have ranks.

Since Cherubim and Seraphim do task and proclaim messages, they are called Maleks (Messengers) in the bible. The word when used does not always mean angelic beings and this is where people become confused. Malek's are also used of human beings who bear a message.

1 Samuel 11:3-4 states that, The elders of Jabesh said to him, "Give us seven days' respite that we may send messengers (Maleks) through all the territory of Israel…4 messengers (Maleks) came to Gibeah of Saul, they reported the matter in the ears of the people, and all the people wept aloud.

These were human Maleks and not angelic beings. Therefore, every where the Hebrew word Malek is used, it does not in all cases mean angelic beings. The word Malek is a generic term for any type person or being that bears a message and does a task. It is unfortunate that people do not understand this and think of Maleks only in angelic terms and definitions. The important thing to note about Maleks is that they speak!

It is how the word Malek is used in the sentence and contextual flow of bible passages is how a person can tell the difference if a Malek is human, angelic, or divine. The word Malek is also used of God himself being a proclaimer of a direct message as well. Yes, Yahweh can be a Malek himself (not an angelic being but the word (John 1:1-14).

The Malek of Yahweh

In the Old Testament you will notice the phrase the angel of the LORD. When this phrase is used, it does not always mean an angelic being but rather reads like this: The Malek of Yahweh.' This indicates that God himself speaking — not an angelic representative as interpreted by some. Again, it is the context of the bible passages where this phrase is found is how to correctly interpret the use of the word malek.

Simply applying the definition of an angel everywhere malek is used creates error. Theme, context, and continuity as well as homiletic is the best way to come into an understanding of scripture text. This avoids great errors and heresy.

What we will look at, is how the word Malek relates to God himself.

Notice that The Malek of Yahweh speaks as God does. Representatives in the bible state things like, 'thus sayeth the Lord,' hear the word of the Lord', etc, as a qualifier. Let's look at how the Malek of Yahweh speaks as only God can speak:

Genesis 16:7-11, The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai." 9 The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) said to her, "Return to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude." 11 And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) said to her, "Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh (the LORD) has listened to your affliction."

Notice that I removed the word angel from these passages and used malek instead and replaced -the LORD- with the actual word used in their place which is God’s identifying name - Yahweh. Now look at and notice that in verses 10 this Malek can only do what God can do. (Note - Romans 4:17 and Isaiah 44:7 state that only God can call things that be-not as though they were.)

Genesis 21:17, And God (Elohim) heard the voice of the boy, and the (Malek) of God (Elohim) called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God (Elohim) has heard the voice of the boy where he is.

Notice in this verse God (Elohim plural noun) heard. Then the messenger (Elohim) called out because Elohim heard. Do you see it? Can you get past the angel thing as well as look a the grammar of this on your own? Here the Malek speaks as only God can.

Now look who Hagar in Genesis 16:13 identifies as the Malek of Yahweh: "So she called the name of Yahweh (the LORD) who spoke to her, "You are a (El) God of seeing," for she said, "Truly here I have seen him who looks after me."

Why would Hagar call a mere angel - Yahweh? She saw him who looked after her! Yes, people can see God and live (Ex 24:9-12); however, one cannot see the full manifested glory of God (His totality) and live (Ex 33:18-23). People in the Old Testament did encounter and see each of the separate persons of the Godhead so they could live and proclaim his name.

Do not believe me?

Genesis 22:1518, And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares Yahweh (the LORD), because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

The Malek of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time and stated that He (the Malek Yahweh) by himself sworn to Abraham (verse 17) what God sworn in Genesis 12:1-3, 15:5, 17:5-6. 18:18. If this were but a mere angelic being representative - how could such a malek have sworn an oath that only God can swear by?

Hebrews 6:13-14, For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."

Notice also how many times God spoke in Genesis 22:1-18 — a total of three distinct times! First in Gen 22:1, then in verse 11 and in verse 15. You could say, the Father spoke first and the Son spoke twice and also the proper name Yahweh is also mentioned in verse 16 and could very well denote the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one. Thus you have God confirming his own oath as Hebrews 6:13-14 states!

Elsewhere in the Bible

In Numbers 22:35, 38, And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh)the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but speak only the word that I tell you." So Balaam went on with the princes of Balak

In verse 38 identifies who the Malek of Yahweh is:

38 Balaam said to Balak, "Behold, I have come to you! Have I now any power of my own to speak anything? The word that God (Elohim - plural noun) puts in my mouth, that must I speak."

Again in Judges 2:1- and Judges 6:11-16 the Malek speaks as only God could.

Judges 2:1, "And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said: '...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers; and I said: I will never break My covenant with you..."JPS

Judges 6:11-16, And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) came, and sat under the terebinth which was in Ophrah, that belonged unto Joash the Abiezrite; and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) appeared unto him, and said unto him: Yahweh (the LORD) is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.' JPS

13 And Gideon said unto him: 'Oh, my lord (adoni), if Yahweh (the LORD) be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all His wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying: Did not Yahweh (the LORD) bring us up from Egypt? but now Yahweh (the LORD) hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.' JPS

Note who turned toward him - was not this the same person who sat under the tree?

Judges 6:14-16
, And Yahweh (the LORD) turned towards him, and said: 'Go in this thy might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian; have not I sent thee?' 15 And he said unto him: 'Oh, my lord (adoni), wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.' 16 And Yahweh (the LORD) said unto him: 'Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man. JPS

The adoni Gideon uses in his speech should be capitalized to indicate the LORD and not a lord as verse 15 clarifies because Yahweh is speaking - the Malek Yahweh was speaking — Note John 1:1-14.

In fact in Gen 31:11-13 the Malek identifies himself as El (God)in verse 13:

Then the angel (Malek) of God (Elohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' Gen 31:12 And he said, 'Lift up your eyes and see, all the goats that mate with the flock are striped, spotted, and mottled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the (El) God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Look at Exodus 3:2 -6:

And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, "I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned." 4 When (Yahweh) the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then he said, "Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." 6 And he said, "I am the God (Elohim) of your father, the God (Elohim) of Abraham, the God (Elohim) of Isaac, and the God (Elohim) of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God (Elohim).

Again the Malek of Yahweh identifies Himself as God in verse 6 after all - who is directly speaking? A representative when such speak on God’s behalf they state a hearty, 'thus says the Lord' or 'hear the word of the Lord' or 'God says' qualifying they are not God. Not so in the burning bush account! There will be more on Moses and the burning bush in next installment. You all have enough to make your head to spin for today.

John 1:1-3, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made

Remember a Malek speaks and performs task! The 2nd person of the Trinity is such one that speaks and carries out task! Does He not?

(Note all Bible quotes from ESV unless otherwise cited)
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by Sam1995 »

Sam wrote:
I'm loosely pentecostal and I get along just fine here
Sam, we didn't know this! From this point forward, you will be teased relentlessly because of your pentecostalismness! :lol:
Just FYI, my wife considers herself "pentecostal", and I still love her despite that. :pound:
[/quote]

I tease others enough, suppose it's only fair ;)

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis
1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Post by 1stjohn0666 »

RickD wrote:The Christian faith did not originate with the Jews.
Would you then say Jesus was not a Jew. The entire Bible is of Jewish origin. Jesus cannot quote Jewish scriptures if it was entirely something else.
Post Reply