Divine Command Morality

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Sam1995, I spent 2-3 hours replying to your post, when I hit submit it asked me to login again, my entire reply was lost. When I get a chance I'll reply to your post.

Maybe it is a sign from God that your post was flushed?!

... if you have nothing good to say don't say anything at all?

Have you ever thought of following your own advice, above?

Going by your logic of "if you have nothing good to say don't say anything at all?" you would have to retract pretty much everything you have ever posted here.

Indeed! Listen, snorider, post only intelligent and insightful comments from now on - under the aegis of politeness - and I'll forget the past and begin to take you seriously.

FL

[Proinsias]

I used to be an atheist, and a vile one of similar style to snorider and his alterego MAGSolo. I can assure you that snorider is unable to understand what you are writing for two reasons:

Sounds like nothing much has changed for you. You used to think those who disagreed with you were fools, then you seen the light and realised those who disagree with you are fools.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I used to be an atheist, and a vile one of similar style to snorider and his alterego MAGSolo. I can assure you that snorider is unable to understand what you are writing for two reasons:

Sounds like nothing much has changed for you. You used to think those who disagreed with you were fools, then you seen the light and realised those who disagree with you are fools.

You may be confused or simply want to provoke. In any event, I don't care. Let us see if snorider is able to change his attitude.

FL

[Proinsias]

I'm generally pretty confused and there's a good chance I'm provoking. Let's see if Furstentum Liechtenstein, regardless if he's in atheist or Christian mode, can change his attitude that those who don't agree with him are fools......

[FlawedIntellect]

I'm generally pretty confused and there's a good chance I'm provoking. Let's see if Furstentum Liechtenstein, regardless if he's in atheist or Christian mode, can change his attitude that those who don't agree with him are fools......

Pro, did you just give away your intention? XD
You just lost at trolling!

My, this thread is derailed!

The thread concerns the moral implications of a command from a divine authority! (When it's God, one is obligated to obey, though shouldn't one test to be sure the order is from God and not something else?)

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I'm generally pretty confused and there's a good chance I'm provoking. Let's see if Furstentum Liechtenstein, regardless if he's in atheist or Christian mode, can change his attitude that those who don't agree with him are fools......

Have you taken your medication today?

The thread concerns the moral implications of a command from a divine authority!

Well, on the surface, yes...but not really! This tread is more about judging God by snorider's standards.

FL

[neo-x]

Sounds like nothing much has changed for you. You used to think those who disagreed with you were fools, then you seen the light and realised those who disagree with you are fools.

Pro, I think this is more than what is really going on. Saying someone is a "fool" can mean a lot of things. Some people use the word fool as in personal attack, meaning dumb. Others can mean when someone is intelligent but not seeing what is in his face.

I mean just look at that statement. If snorider had been a flat earther, and Fl, an ex-flat earther, would you still hold to your statement above? Do you think flat earthers are fools? if yes then you get trapped in your own words, if no, then you obviously should note that some disagreements are foolish.

What you said sounds nice for a general rule but I don't think it applies everywhere. Many people think Christians are fools for worshiping a sky daddy and following an old book. Many people think that atheists are fools for not seeing the apparent evidence for God in nature and creation. I mean how do you decide what is a "fool" and is that always wrong? If my brother smokes heroin, I'd say he is a fool. Its not his intelligence which is in question, but his actions. And there'd be nothing wrong with me saying that.

As for sno, I think he is just not seeing the point because of his convictions (which he doesn't plan to change), and I think that is what FL meant. If you are hell bent on proving your point and not willing to be a bit accommodating, I do not think any amount of persuasion, discussion can change that. Sno, feels God is a imaginary maniac (well obviously imaginary, sno says that God doesn't exist) and he is not open to any fact or reason which says otherwise, and if that is so what is the point of provoking this thread? insulting others beliefs?

I have taken enough crap from atheists to know when someone is at least being reasonable, Sno does not fit the bill yet. I'd actually go ahead and say this but I think he has little to no idea of theology and what he has currently is probably wrong too. Is it silly to form opinions when you know little or nothing of the mechanism behind the scenes? I'd say it is silly. Reading about Hercules in a text book is not going to make you a scholar in Greek mythology. Why should anyone(theists and atheists alike) just read the English bible and instantly form scholarly opinions and expects to be seriously taken, is beyond me.

[Sam1995]

it's funny, because atheists have accused me of being close/narrow minded in the past because I am a Christian. Truth be told, atheists are every bit as close-minded as Christians because many of them are stubborn to the idea of a God, there aren't a huge amount of atheists who are open minded philosophers open to changing their views. Apologies if you think I am making an unfair assumption, simply stating my thoughts.

SB

[neo-x]

it's funny, because atheists have accused me of being close/narrow minded in the past because I am a Christian. Truth be told, atheists are every bit as close-minded as Christians because many of them are stubborn to the idea of a God, there aren't a huge amount of atheists who are open minded philosophers open to changing their views. Apologies if you think I am making an unfair assumption, simply stating my thoughts.

Actually, if you say an atheist is a wrong or a fool, then everyone just gets teary eyed in a second, it becoems a battle of intellect verses superstition and words like "religion has always kept us quiet, it is evil etc." starts popping up. But if an atheist says that he doesn't believe in a sky rat oh yes they don't use the word God, and all believers are suckers and idiots, then it is enlightening. And they should have the right to say so, without regard of people who hold deep commitment to their faiths.

[Sam1995]

it's funny, because atheists have accused me of being close/narrow minded in the past because I am a Christian. Truth be told, atheists are every bit as close-minded as Christians because many of them are stubborn to the idea of a God, there aren't a huge amount of atheists who are open minded philosophers open to changing their views. Apologies if you think I am making an unfair assumption, simply stating my thoughts.

Actually, if you say an atheist is a wrong or a fool, then everyone just gets teary eyed in a second, it becoems a battle of intellect verses superstition and words like "religion has always kept us quiet, it is evil etc." starts popping up. But if an atheist says that he doesn't believe in a sky rat oh yes they don't use the word God, and all believers are suckers and idiots, then it is enlightening. And they should have the right to say so, without regard of people who hold deep commitment to their faiths.

For anyone to call the other a fool or wrong in a debate, unless completely rational, is wrong. Atheist or not.

SB

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

snorider had been a flat earther, and Fl, an ex-flat earther, would you still hold to your statement above? Do you think flat earthers are fools?

Excuse me...are you implying that the earth is not flat???

FL

[snorider]

Of course there are a number of reasons as to why we have a different number of religions in the world today, however first of all, many of them do not have sufficient evidence in order to back up the claims that they make about their "Gods." Christianity came from Judaism which is the oldest surviving religion to my knowledge, the muslim faith, which is the second biggest religion in the world, came more than 500 years after Christianity, claiming to have prophecies from Muhammed. We have different religions for such a vast number of reasons that I do not have time to explain, but that is no form of an argument against the Christian faith, it sounds like you are "clutching at straws."

Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion, there are many religions that are extremely old. If you are talking evidence, why don't you believe in any of the Greek God's such as Apollo? You can see him in the sky everyday.


December 25th used quite a bit prior to Jesus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobDpVqny3I&

Wrong. To use the example of one ancient historian, Josephus. He was a historian at the time of Jesus, was not a believer and yet still records in his book, Antiquities - "On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”

Also, the world's current leader of the "new atheist" regime, Richard Dawkins, believes that Jesus existed. I do apologize for my apparent ignorance, but I would concede in believing that Dawkins is a far more intelligent man than you, and if even he can admit that Jesus existed, I don't think you have much of a basis for your argument.

Ah, isn't it interesting that the four gospels were written 40-100 years after Jesus died? I'm familiar with Josephus, him and a few historians made a few short remarks about Jesus. Sure, Jesus probably was a real person, he influenced people but so did other prophets which is why we have other religions.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoiW4KO_Om4

Elaborate. What are they?

Here are a few tables, I can provide more.
http://inflicted.org/contradictions1.doc

Have you read the bible? How do you not know about ANY contradictions between the gospels?

The Greek Gods do not have evidence for their existence, even the most intelligent theory of the Prime Mover to come out of ancient Greece from Aristotle is flawed in the sense that it is a deistic God, and also was not responsible for the creation of the universe, only sustaining it. If you can show me sufficient evidence to support the existence of the Greek Gods such as Zeus, which nobody can rebuke in a factual manner, I will applaud you.

Your Christian God has more evidence than other religion's God's? Those of other religions would beg to differ. As I mentioned before there have been many prophets similar to Jesus, having the same birthday.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobDpVqny3I&

[Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division. Luke 12:51]

Oh really? Jesus knew that not everybody would follow him, please back up your arguments with evidence.

Hmm, if you suspect a child of stealing something and he offers to let you search his coat freely do you believe him and let him go or do you search his coat? I hope you aren't that gullible and dismiss him as innocent.

Of course Jesus would say that, why? There isn't good evidence to back up his claims.

How do you think this would have looked 2000 thousand years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEc_jeGBVxs
I would have been a believer.

The Bible was an explanation for things we didn't understand, as time goes on Science has been providing us with answers. The Christian church was furious with Galileo when he proved the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. This isn't the first time, the Pope also endorsed Evolution.. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-pope-accepts-evolution.htm

2000 years ago, the Bible had answers for creation, how things were, our understanding of the world. How much of that is true in comparison to Science today?
Noah's Arch, Adam and Eve.. Really? "It comes down to cherry picking now, well that doesn't make sense but here is something Science hasn't explained so I suppose God did it. "

Very rational.

You used the example of 9/11, there is nothing else that arguments against 9/11 can be pinned on apart from that of the muslim faith. Also, I am not a catholic, once again you have assumed that and think that I follow catholic doctrine. Answer me this, did God command anti-abortion clinic bombings or was it done out of disobedience to God? I think the answer is a very simple one. I can link you just as many articles referring to killings commited in the name of atheism. The argument works both ways, but mainly against atheists, slightly silly of you to use that argument against my faith.

When an atheist does something bad, they are bad because they are a bad person, not doing it for a God or a religion.

Let's talk about Christianity in general, the inquisition, crusades, witch burning for starters? That's a lot in one sentence, but that's millions of people that have died in the name of Christianity, not a specific branch of Christianity.

Let's talk about children dying during circumcision. Children drowning during baptism. Google it, it happens all the time, many times this very year.

We've gone from witch burning to child raping / child raping cover ups. Well, I suppose that's Catholic specific.

I didn't say having sins are not a cop out. I said having sins forgiven is a cop out.

How so? This rests solely on the fact that you do not believe God to be real. I can just as easily say to you - not believing in God is a cop out because you shut yourself away from the fact that you will stand before God in judgement one day.

We are adults, you don't think that people should take responsibility for their actions?
Confessing to a priest or Jesus rather than confessing and asking forgiveness to the person you hurt works for you?
Complete cop out the way the Christian faith works.

I've posted this video before but I have not had any response to it, according to Jesus, the Bible and my understanding this is accurate and can happen the way it is depicted in this video:

http://tinyurl.com/b8vlxxm

Can you or anyone confirm?

Not the case, I think you'll find it's much simpler than that. It's -

"God, heal my heart, my life is yours, I give it to you. Thank you for your forgiveness, mercy, love and grace. Come into my heart and make it clean. Amen."

That's an example, simply saying sorry isn't enough, you have the wrong idea. One must ask Jesus into their life in order to receive salvation.

Right, this goes back to the whole accepting responsibility part of the post. We covered that.

So you have never lied, never stolen, never said or thought a bad thing about anyone, never put a person down, never commited any form of bad act against any person. I think you'll find that you are wrong there. Yes, if you do not accept Jesus into your life, then you are headed for hell. Your choice. Your opportunity. Your salvation.

Well, I should rephrase that, I can't recall saying a lie to hurt someone, I have told lies to make someone feel better.

Regardless of the type of lie it doesn't matter..

If a child grew up in the forest alone and lived throughout his days to adult hood without meeting another person he would go to hell by definition.

People of other religions that are completely devout to God, lived a better life than me and know of Jesus but choose not to partake in Christianity because of their family's beliefs would by definition go to Hell, for not accepting Jesus. John 14:6

Completely rational...

1. Because of the vastly large amount of evidence backing up the claims of the Christian faith.
2. Experiencing God.
3. The fact that no other religion can account for itself in every circumstance thrown against it apart from Christianity.
4. No other religions contain sufficient evidence to back their claims up.
5. Atheism is a hopeless faith with a mis-interpreted idea of God which is corrupt and should not be used as an argument against Christian faith.

1. The vastly large amount of evidence? The four contradictory gospels written 40-100 years after his death? It's kind of an important deal, the son of God and all... Forty years sounds about right...
The historians that wrote vaguely about his existence starting at around 100 years after his death and I reinforce "vaguely".

2. I suppose the billions of others that practice their religions don't really experience God and are just faking it.

3. I have no idea what you're talking about on this one, please explain?

4. This is very similar to 1., however, I'll entertain it: the greek God Apollo (the sun) is more tangible than your Christian God, remember. Jesus was a messiah - human, one amongst many throughout history, we are talking Gods, not sons of... I suppose you could argue "The Trinity" Yes, Jesus said he was God, he also referred to his Father throughout the Bible... Quite a few Messiah's refer to themselves as God at points.


5. Hopeless? - Well, as someone that has experienced both sides I disagree.
When I became a non-believer, my life became richer, knowing that my life is short and precious, I treasure my days on this Earth more.

Are you the same religion as your family out of the countless others?

No, what a silly argument to put forward.

I have one question - why are you a moral being?

A moral being?


Morality is known not only in humans but throughout the animal kingdom, it can be found in just about any species that work in groups to survive. Why do you think a pack of wolves don't tear each other apart? Jesus?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Could you point out a situation where I have jumped in on a forum thread and said something negative without replying to a question/post?

When I'm out in my day-to-day affairs, every once in a while someone will walk by me and I'll notice that they reek of cigarettes. They just stink! Their person, their clothes, give off this awful odor that follows them like the wake of a boat. When I used to smoke, I never knew that I smelled bad.

When I used to be an atheist, I would say the same things you now say about Christianity. I thought they were smart and showed the foolishness of religion, and when Christians stopped talking to me I assumed that my arguments were so good that they couldn't reply. I now understand that wise Christians just stop discussing with someone who is quarrelsome and unteachable, as per Mt 7:6.

So, to answer your question, above, you are negative in (almost) every single post. Every post! but you are presently unable to see that.

When I used to be a heavy smoker, I never realized that I stank...but I did! When I was an atheist, I never realized that I was closed-minded and hateful...but I was! You are in a similar position today. My prayer is that one day, you will have the insight to recognize this in yourself.

FL

[Sam1995]

Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion, there are many religions that are extremely old. If you are talking evidence, why don't you believe in any of the Greek God's such as Apollo? You can see him in the sky everyday.

Ok, thanks for telling me that! Well, you answer your own question here. There is no evidence for the Greek Gods, but there is evidence for the God of Christianity. Do you actually have a point here or are you trying to make a fool out of me? You won’t achieve that if you are trying!

December 25th used quite a bit prior to Jesus

Oh wow......

Ah, isn't it interesting that the four gospels were written 40-100 years after Jesus died? I'm familiar with Josephus, him and a few historians made a few short remarks about Jesus. Sure, Jesus probably was a real person, he influenced people but so did other prophets which is why we have other religions.

It’s not really interesting, if I’m honest. Never really got me excited inside, dates are not very exciting, if they are for you then that’s great! If you were familiar with Josephus and some other historians of the time then you would not have made your original point, because you have now changed your mind. Were you lying to me earlier Snorider? Of course other prophets influenced people, the whole premise now is figuring out who was right and I believe that Jesus was. Jesus was not a prophet, He was the messiah. And again, your atheist videos about God are made by people who reject the existence of God, the arguments are thus close-minded and one-sided. Stop using them. Reading through those “contradictions” simply shows me that. A) you know nothing of the differences between the OT and the NT and B) You don’t understand Biblical context.

Your Christian God has more evidence than other religion's God's? Those of other religions would beg to differ. As I mentioned before there have been many prophets similar to Jesus, having the same birthday.

Tell me about the muslim, hindu and buddhist apologists that you know about. How many are there? Are they well known? Do they really stand up for their faith?

Hmm, if you suspect a child of stealing something and he offers to let you search his coat freely do you believe him and let him go or do you search his coat? I hope you aren't that gullible and dismiss him as innocent.

What is your point here? This analogy is of no relevance to the argument.

Of course Jesus would say that, why? There isn't good evidence to back up his claims.

How do you think this would have looked 2000 thousand years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEc_jeGBVxs
I would have been a believer.
The Bible was an explanation for things we didn't understand, as time goes on Science has been providing us with answers. The Christian church was furious with Galileo when he proved the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. This isn't the first time, the Pope also endorsed Evolution.. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-pope-accepts-evolution.htm
2000 years ago, the Bible had answers for creation, how things were, our understanding of the world. How much of that is true in comparison to Science today?
Noah's Arch, Adam and Eve.. Really? "It comes down to cherry picking now, well that doesn't make sense but here is something Science hasn't explained so I suppose God did it. "

First of all, how do you know that there is no good evidence to back up Jesus’ claims? I think that’s absurd nonsense. Also, it would’ve looked great, the difference bewteen Dynamo and Jesus is that Dynamo’s walking on water has been shown up for what it really was hundreds of times, do you honestly believe Dynamo walked on water? Jesus wouldn’t have had the equipment to “fake” walking on water. Also, saying that Bible used to have answers for creation and no longer does is also absurd nonsense. Science and Christianity are not opposed and sir, if you try to say otherwise then you, frankly, are an absolute idiot. The ROMAN CATHOLIC church was angry with Galileo, what’s your point? Doesn’t provide any sort of argument against the existence of God. Once again, I am not a roman catholic so I am not going to defend the Pope’s views. I believe in natural selection as what Darwin observed at the time, that people and animals change over time within their own environments, that’s simple logic surely. But I do not believe that it accounts for itself. Do you know ANYTHING about old earth creationism?
The Bible still has answers for creation. How things are. It’s still true in light of science today. Noah’s ark, Adam and Eve. Really! Your final quote makes reference to the age old “God of the gaps theory.” Put simply, I know God exists through the things that I already do understand. The way the laws of physics work. The way different elements and scientific mechanisms of our universe work. Every single one of them points towards a designer and to deny the existence of that designed appears to be ludicrous. I know God exists because of the things that I do understand, not because of the things that I do not. Your argument, once again, does not work.

When an atheist does something bad, they are bad because they are a bad person, not doing it for a God or a religion.

Let's talk about Christianity in general, the inquisition, crusades, witch burning for starters? That's a lot in one sentence, but that's millions of people that have died in the name of Christianity, not a specific branch of Christianity.

Ok, let’s talk about Christianity in general. Witch burning, done in disobedience to Christ, not in obedience to His command. What’s your point?

Let's talk about children dying during circumcision. Children drowning during baptism. Google it, it happens all the time, many times this very year.

Colossians 3:11

We are adults, you don't think that people should take responsibility for their actions?
Confessing to a priest or Jesus rather than confessing and asking forgiveness to the person you hurt works for you?
Complete cop out the way the Christian faith works.

When did I ever say that we won’t?
You ask other people for forgiveness too, like any normal person. Snorider, you very clearly know nothing about Christian faith and how it works within life.

If a child grew up in the forest alone and lived throughout his days to adult hood without meeting another person he would go to hell by definition.

Are there any people like that?

People of other religions that are completely devout to God, lived a better life than me and know of Jesus but choose not to partake in Christianity because of their family's beliefs would by definition go to Hell, for not accepting Jesus. John 14:6

Yes.

Completely rational...

It is, you’re right. People have the opportunity to choose for themselves what they believe.

The vastly large amount of evidence? The four contradictory gospels written 40-100 years after his death? It's kind of an important deal, the son of God and all... Forty years sounds about right...
The historians that wrote vaguely about his existence starting at around 100 years after his death and I reinforce "vaguely".

I’m talking about scientific evidence. The gospels are also evidence for His existence. You base your argument on the premise that the Bible is fallible which I think is rubbish.

I suppose the billions of others that practice their religions don't really experience God and are just faking it.

How many other religions experience God the way that Christianity does?

I have no idea what you're talking about on this one, please explain?

Christianity, unlike any other religion, can answer any questions put towards it.

This is very similar to 1., however, I'll entertain it: the greek God Apollo (the sun) is more tangible than your Christian God, remember. Jesus was a messiah - human, one amongst many throughout history, we are talking Gods, not sons of... I suppose you could argue "The Trinity" Yes, Jesus said he was God, he also referred to his Father throughout the Bible... Quite a few Messiah's refer to themselves as God at points.

You haven’t made a point here. Or, if you have. It isn’t clear.

Hopeless? - Well, as someone that has experienced both sides I disagree.
When I became a non-believer, my life became richer, knowing that my life is short and precious, I treasure my days on this Earth more.

That depends on what your perspective of life is. You have become corrupted by the world and thus enjoy the things of the world. You will be held accountable for that before God when you die.

A moral being?


Morality is known not only in humans but throughout the animal kingdom, it can be found in just about any species that work in groups to survive. Why do you think a pack of wolves don't tear each other apart? Jesus?

Animals were created by God as well as humans. Are you stupid?

SB

[jlay]

ELEPHANT HURLING

December 25th used quite a bit prior to Jesus:

This is hillarious. You'll never see Dec. 25th mentioned in the bible, or anywhere by the Christian church until the Roman empire merged Christianity with their pagan festivals. So, what are you trying to prove here? Or, do you even know? The date Dec. 25th is not held as the actual birthday of Jesus.

Ah, isn't it interesting that the four gospels were written 40-100 years after Jesus died?

The Gospels were all written during the times of the lives of contemporaries. If Jesus died in 33 a.d., then 40 years would be the max. We have Paul's letter which date much closer and support the Gospels.
What is interesting is that none of the Gospels, or Acts directly mention the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Mark 13:2 makes a predictive reference, but never once makes claim of it being fulfilled. There is simply no further reason to hold to the later dates, unless one just stubbornly holds to skepticism for skepticism's sake.

Your Christian God has more evidence than other religion's God's? Those of other religions would beg to differ. As I mentioned before there have been many prophets similar to Jesus, having the same birthday.

You only make yourself look like a fool by continuing to mention this. You should at least have a basic idea of what you are talking about. No Bible believing Christian belives that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. Your skepticism is built on ignorance. Does that sound like a good foundation? FL is right. Something stinks, and you can't smell it.