Advocating Atheism

[Philip]

After decades of being rather marginalized, atheists are now becoming much more vocal. Are these just the so-called "New Atheists?" I don't know. But now we're starting to see billboards and advertisements - not just advocating belief in NOTHING - but advocacy that attacks the beliefs of others (the height of intolerance).

But, very interestingly, I see a few trends in the new atheism:

1) Thinly disguised anger and hostility, wrapped up in arrogance and pride - that such atheists see themselves as much more enlightened (and thus - implied - more intelligent) than those who believe in some version of a god or God.

2) The anger they have seems odd - it's as IF they believe that people of belief (whatever that belief might be) wrongfully believe in some type of god or God that they believe doesn't exist - and so WHY THEIR ANGER? Unless there is some harm done by those of belief, then what - or WHO - are they actually angry at? They often act as if they are angry at something (or Someone) that actually exists? But if they believe there is no God or afterlife, then why their anger? Doesn't make much sense.

3) Atheists don't typically rant against Hindus or Muslims, etc., but they seem hyper obsessed with Jesus and Christianity. Now, why would that be - IF Christianity is just another option of a long list of supposedly non-existent deities?

[RickD]

Philip wrote:
3) Atheists don't typically rant against Hindus or Muslims, etc., but they seem hyper obsessed with Jesus and Christianity. Now, why would that be - IF Christianity is just another option of a long list of supposedly non-existent deities?

Philip, you can't fool me. this is a rhetorical question.
Here's a rhetorical question right back at you: when atheists get mad, why do they yell "Jesus"?

[Sam1995]

It is those of the "new atheist" regime who you are talking about Philip. They are militant in their atheism and turn it into a faith as much as Christianity.

SB

[jlay]

They love to use the "F" word a lot as well.

My cousin has become one, and he loves to incorporate the F word any chance he gets.

Pat Tillman's brother is a perfect example. Here is his Eulogy. Now, you may say he is grieving, but he has been interviewed years later, and it's pretty much the same stuff.

"Thanks Pat. [toasting him with a glass of Guiness beer] I didn't write s--t because I'm not a writer. I'm not just going to sit here and break down on you. But thanks for coming. Pat's a f---ing champion and always will be. Just make no mistake, he'd want me to say this: He's not with God. He's f---ing dead. He's not religious. So, thanks for your thoughts, but he's f---ing dead."

This was at his funeral service. Lovely.

[Sam1995]

They love to use the "F" word a lot as well.

My cousin has become one, and he loves to incorporate the F word any chance he gets.

Maybe I'm being silly, but what is the F word in this case?

SB

[PaulSacramento]

Atheists don't go after muslims typically because, well, muslims can be very militant and well, watch your ass.
They don't go after Hindus because Hindu belief is complex and confusing enough that it covers TOO Much for an atheist to "aim for" and Hindus to NOT argue for their religion.
They don't go after Buddhist because they do NOT (typically) have a God so the atheist have nothing to aim for other than an ideology, just like theirs.
They don't go after Jews for the same reason as Muslims ( antisemitism is a fine line).
The go after Christians because it is the most prevalent religion, the most famous, makes the biggest claims and has the biggest target AND that fact that the majority of Christians are so bad at defending their own faith.

[Stygian]

Most smart atheists I know hate "the new atheism" as much as any smart Christian would. But, as Screwtape puts it...

"Don't waste time trying to make him think that materialism is true! Make him think it is strong or stark or courageous - that it is the philosophy of the future. That's the sort of thing he cares about."

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

After decades of being rather marginalized, atheists are now becoming much more vocal.

Yes, they seem more vocal than when I was a militant atheist 25 years ago. And today's atheists seem less grounded - less studied - and more on the fringe: angrier, vindictive...''deranged'' is a word that comes to mind. A look at any atheist forum will confirm that today's atheists are foul-mouthed, rageful and usually quite ignorant.

I'm surprised that so many new members here are atheists. It seems only the most foolish post. I wonder what the others come here for?

FL

[Ivellious]

Yes, they seem more vocal than when I was a militant atheist 25 years ago.

Not necessarily, there could just be a greater amount of vocal atheists out there. Most atheists I know are as quiet about their faith as the average Christian. Saying atheists today are loud just because a handful of atheists have become louder is like me looking at the preacher on campus and saying "geez, Christians these days sure are loud and outspoken."

And today's atheists seem less grounded - less studied - and more on the fringe: angrier, vindictive...''deranged'' is a word that comes to mind.

That's rather subjective. Have you even heard some of the prominent Christian voices and figureheads these days? Some of them are just as downright angry, vindictive, and deranged as militant atheists. Some more so than anything I've ever heard from an atheist.

I'm surprised that so many new members here are atheists. It seems only the most foolish post.

Again, congrats on being so high-and-mighty, my superior Christian friend. I certainly do love it when supposed "Christians" act like such pieces of s*** toward other people. Jesus would be so proud of you, I'm sure.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Yes, they seem more vocal than when I was a militant atheist 25 years ago.

Not necessarily, there could just be a greater amount of vocal atheists out there. Most atheists I know are as quiet about their faith as the average Christian. Saying atheists today are loud just because a handful of atheists have become louder is like me looking at the preacher on campus and saying "geez, Christians these days sure are loud and outspoken."

And today's atheists seem less grounded - less studied - and more on the fringe: angrier, vindictive...''deranged'' is a word that comes to mind.

That's rather subjective. Have you even heard some of the prominent Christian voices and figureheads these days? Some of them are just as downright angry, vindictive, and deranged as militant atheists. Some more so than anything I've ever heard from an atheist.

I'm surprised that so many new members here are atheists. It seems only the most foolish post.

Again, congrats on being so high-and-mighty, my superior Christian friend. I certainly do love it when supposed "Christians" act like such pieces of s*** toward other people. Jesus would be so proud of you, I'm sure.

I wasn't comparing atheists to Christians. I find it amusing that you - an undefined esoteric - would come to the defense of atheism! Hatred of God makes strange bedfellows...

Your post seems like a knee-jerk reaction to mine. As such, I can't take it seriously.

FL

[Canuckster1127]

Atheism is not a uniform movement. There are differences in beliefs, and degrees.

I think that the has been a strengthening in the realm of so-called "New" Atheism under the tutelage of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris etc. However, they are not universally admired or endorsed by all atheists.

I post this as an example, not an endorsement.

http://crashbangwallace.com/2010/08/24/ ... -atheists/

This is an example of a blog by an atheist who has little respect for Dawkins or his methods which are militant, combative and disrespectful often.

The same is true in the Christian "camp". There are militantly fundamentalist Christians who are equally distasteful to other Christians in their methods. The obvious example is Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist and while I certainly don't put them in the same league there's been some pretty strong backlash to Mike Huckabee and James Dobson from Christian circles who took offense at their characterizations of God with regard to the recent school shooting in Newtown, Ct.

It's probably best to take people one at a time and listen to them on their own merits and what they're saying rather than sticking labels on them and generalizing. That's the heart of stereotyping.

I've interacted with many atheists in other forums, particularly those I frequent as a Book Reviewer and there are several whom I've gotten along with quite well and formed a relationship of mutual respect even while recognizing our fundamental differences of belief. That limits how deep that can go of course, but it doesn't preclude respectful conversations and the ability to see where other people are coming from and why.

[Ivellious]

I wasn't comparing atheists to Christians.

Well yeah...I made the comparison to point out how ignorant and blind it is to say "atheists these days are all stupid and uneducated" when I could use the exact same reasoning to say that all Christians are stupid and uneducated. But I don't, because I know that picking out the worst handful of a huge group of people is a terrible way to make broad assumptions about that group. You don't seem to understand that.

I find it amusing that you - an undefined esoteric - would come to the defense of atheism!

Indeed I did, and have, but only when members like you make idiotic statements about atheists as a whole. I don't like militant atheists and how they operate, and in fact I have made this overtly clear before now. I have similar negative feelings for lots of outspoken Christians, too (see: televangelists, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, etc.). I'll defend any group if I feel they are unjustly attacked for no reason, which is why I tend to butt heads with you and Gman and some others on here. But don't that to mean I'm an atheist or that I blindly support all atheists.

You don't see it on here, because there is no shortage of Christians to defend themselves here, but I've outwardly defended Christians at college from a group of atheists that were being morons, in my opinion.

Hatred of God makes strange bedfellows...

You can say what you like. I don't hate God, I hate how you and some others take your "love" of God and turn it into "everyone but me is an idiot for believing otherwise." You know that saying "hate the sin, love the sinner"? I don't hate you or any other outspoken Christian out there, but I sure as heck hate how you treat other people sometimes.

Your post seems like a knee-jerk reaction to mine.

It was knee-jerk to some extent, but I stand by it. It's insulting to see you say that most of the non-believers who post on here (like me, a fairly frequent poster), are fools, stupid, ignorant, or any other variation on what was said.

Also, I won't quote the whole thing, but Canuckster basically hit it on the head with the last post. Kudos for the good post.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Well yeah...I made the comparison to point out how ignorant and blind it is to say "atheists these days are all stupid and uneducated" when I could use the exact same reasoning to say that all Christians are stupid and uneducated. But I don't, because I know that picking out the worst handful of a huge group of people is a terrible way to make broad assumptions about that group. You don't seem to understand that.

You interpreted what I wrote, you didn't read it. If you scroll up, you'll see that I never said ''atheists these days are all stupid and uneducated.''

Indeed I did, and have, but only when members like you make idiotic statements about atheists as a whole. I don't like militant atheists and how they operate, and in fact I have made this overtly clear before now. I have similar negative feelings for lots of outspoken Christians, too (see: televangelists, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, etc.). I'll defend any group if I feel they are unjustly attacked for no reason, which is why I tend to butt heads with you and Gman and some others on here. But don't that to mean I'm an atheist or that I blindly support all atheists.

You sound bizarre, above. It is best not to post things in the heat of emotion. You normally post smarter stuff.

You can say what you like. I don't hate God, I hate how you and some others take your "love" of God and turn it into "everyone but me is an idiot for believing otherwise." You know that saying "hate the sin, love the sinner"? I don't hate you or any other outspoken Christian out there, but I sure as heck hate how you treat other people sometimes.

From a purely biblical perspective, you do hate God. If you loved Him, you would be His. Sorry. And again, you are imagining when you claim that I think ''everyone but me is an idiot for believing otherwise.'' When in doubt, ask/ investigate...don't just assume.

It was knee-jerk to some extent, but I stand by it. It's insulting to see you say that most of the non-believers who post on here (like me, a fairly frequent poster), are fools, stupid, ignorant, or any other variation on what was said.

I wasn't commenting on ''unbelievers'' as such but specifically on atheists. Again, you interpreted what I wrote, you did not read it! This is what I wrote:

[Atheists] seem more vocal than when I was a militant atheist 25 years ago. And today's atheists seem less grounded - less studied - and more on the fringe: angrier, vindictive...''deranged'' is a word that comes to mind. A look at any atheist forum will confirm that today's atheists are foul-mouthed, rageful and usually quite ignorant.

I'm surprised that so many new members here are atheists. It seems only the most foolish post. I wonder what the others come here for?

FL

I was commenting on atheists who post here and on atheist forums which can be readily found on the 'net. Do you see that I used the word atheist, above? When atheists post here, they keep their tongues in check...but just take a look at all the foul language on an atheist forum. And do you consider MAGSolo/snorider's posts insightful...honestly?

Anyway, I don't understand why you're all in a huff. From my perspective, you are just angry, and anger is a bad counsellor.

FL

[Proinsias]

They love to use the "F" word a lot as well.

My cousin has become one, and he loves to incorporate the F word any chance he gets.

Pat Tillman's brother is a perfect example. Here is his Eulogy. Now, you may say he is grieving, but he has been interviewed years later, and it's pretty much the same stuff.

"Thanks Pat. [toasting him with a glass of Guiness beer] I didn't write s--t because I'm not a writer. I'm not just going to sit here and break down on you. But thanks for coming. Pat's a f---ing champion and always will be. Just make no mistake, he'd want me to say this: He's not with God. He's f---ing dead. He's not religious. So, thanks for your thoughts, but he's f---ing dead."

This was at his funeral service. Lovely.

That sounds like a drunken response by a loving brother at a funeral service which had religious overtones he felt his brother would not have wanted, this is just a guess. I don't think I'd have been brave enough and would probably have omitted the swearing too for fear of offending, but if certain friends were to die I'm pretty sure they would want want someone speak out against a religious flavour to their funeral. Years later in an interview would be much easier than at the funeral imo. I attended a good friend's wedding over the summer which had a religious component to 'keep family members happy', the couple were adamant on getting married without religion and after getting married spent the next few hours getting blessings and whatnot to keep various religious family members happy.

I've heard the argument that once you declare God dead, you've lost the most important word in your language and you need a substitute. The F word is a pretty versatile substitute - the range of applications the word and its derivatives have is astounding. I keep my swearing in check here and in many social situations but it is merely a censored version of my full flow. Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing pretty much sums up my views, it's on youtube if you fancy a peek but I know from previous experience that direct links to this video are frowned upon.

I enjoy swearing and I think the Scottish accent & dialect is a wonderful vehicle for it.



----

My upbringing and surroundings have been largely Christian influenced and as such most atheists I know tend to expend the most effort taking down the Christian image of God they were raised with. Many conversions to atheism I've witnessed have been cathartic processes, there's an initial outburst of hatred or mocking of Christianity which tends to settle down after a bit. If someone has devoted much of their life's energies to something that they begin to see as a lie, anger is likely to follow. From the way I've seen people react it's like finding out many years of marriage or friendship were built on a lies - it brings forth resentment, hurt, anger and hatred.

Atheists forums are often a space to vent, once someone has decided to abandon theism they often feel the need to get it out of their system and the internet is a great place to do so. The only Atheist forum I was a part of was taken offline a few years ago as the owner thought it had done it's job as a cathartic process and it was time to move on. As he had been very hard working in promoting the Christian faith for many years, he put a little of his energies into promoting his newly adopted atheistic stance. He had once provided a safe space for Christians when he was a Christian, he went on to provide a safe space for atheists when he lost his faith.

After decades of being rather marginalized, atheists are now becoming much more vocal.

This seems pretty normal to me. In comparison Christianity went from being marginalised to one of the most vocal and obvious influences on humanity. If I get on a bus with an atheist slogan on the side of it, the last one I can recall was the ""There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" campaign, there's a pretty good chance I'll be passing several Churches and Chapels displaying their own slogans and opinions. As more people openly identify with atheism over here it would only appear natural that marketing budgets would also see a larger atheist niche. Atheist bus adverts seem pretty lame in comparison to the money, time and effort that is evident in the proclamation of the Christian God.

1) Thinly disguised anger and hostility, wrapped up in arrogance and pride - that such atheists see themselves as much more enlightened (and thus - implied - more intelligent) than those who believe in some version of a god or God.

This cuts both ways, often those that believe in some version of God seem pretty convinced that they are more enlightened than those who believe in other versions of God or in no God. In many ways I think the voice of atheism is growing as a reaction to evangelism, God even has his own tv channel on my cable package. Atheists think they're right, Christians think they're right - there are arrogant, angry, prideful and hostile people on both sides.
The enlightened claim is one of the things I think that angers many atheists. Atheists who become Christian become enlightened, Christians who become atheists were never Christians in the first place so their testimony means nothing and is as false as their current beliefs. It's a pretty watertight system from the inside.

Criticism of Islam isn't really something atheists in the west need to worry about, Christians have well that covered. Anti-Semitism is pretty much a taboo subject over here, so that's out. Buddhism & Hinduism seem to be confusing to people who accept then reject an Abrahamic concept of God, they are related and both take in a pretty wide range of views and practices which don't always involve adhering to specific claims.

In short atheists have a big problem with Christianity as it's the dominant force of theism in the world and has been for some time.

[domokunrox]

My upbringing and surroundings have been largely Christian influenced and as such most atheists I know tend to expend the most effort taking down the Christian image of God they were raised with. Many conversions to atheism I've witnessed have been cathartic processes, there's an initial outburst of hatred or mocking of Christianity which tends to settle down after a bit. If someone has devoted much of their life's energies to something that they begin to see as a lie, anger is likely to follow. From the way I've seen people react it's like finding out many years of marriage or friendship were built on a lies - it brings forth resentment, hurt, anger and hatred.

Atheists forums are often a space to vent, once someone has decided to abandon theism they often feel the need to get it out of their system and the internet is a great place to do so. The only Atheist forum I was a part of was taken offline a few years ago as the owner thought it had done it's job as a cathartic process and it was time to move on. As he had been very hard working in promoting the Christian faith for many years, he put a little of his energies into promoting his newly adopted atheistic stance. He had once provided a safe space for Christians when he was a Christian, he went on to provide a safe space for atheists when he lost his faith.

I would entirely agree with your assessment, however the formulations of those "venting" arguments are fallacious.

Appealing to anger/hate/emotions are not a sound basis to use to say that "X" is false. One has to wonder why they don't have a proper argument for why "X" is false, don't you think? For something believed so strongly, I'm left to conclude that they are just full of hot air.

I can say quite the opposite and quite contrary to what you often hear the vocal atheist say today because I've grown and learned to believe in the existence of God because I have COME FROM the direction they are going. In fact, MANY of their objections are non-sequiturs. Now, I will grant the atheist a right to his choice to disbelieve in the existence of God, but I take offense in these atheists using fallacious arguments to intellectually assault defenseless people who are just going by their intuitions. Intuition that is rational and reasonable to express.