Was Jesus Christ Really Resurrected?

[Felgar]

Man oh man oh man.

The only thing I have left to suggest is that we all pray for HMG. HMG's confusion is not of this world; I just don't see how it can be. How can someone who proffessed his faith mere days ago be totally uprooted on the ridiculous grounds of pagan myth; it's gotta spiritual. So I think any Christian reading this should start praying for Brian.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

[August]

Brian, I would say that my comments here are that there is nothing that can prove or disprove the Bible and Christianity from the outside. If one has faith, and has received God's grace, then one knows that God is real, and from that position it follows that He is revealed through His Word. It does not happen the other way around, where you first have to believe the Bible and then believe in God. God reveals Himself to you, and you have faith.

Think of gravity, for example. You don't have to study physics to know that gravity exists, but you can learn much more about it by studying physics. Once you have internalized that belief, you don't question whether gravity exists, but you may still study it. Being a Christian is the same. Your belief in God preceeds you studying the Bible. Once you know that He exists, and you love Him with all of your being, then you want to study and learn more about Him, as a fruit of the Spirit.

The early believers did not have a Bible, nonetheless they still believed in God. They had faith from His revelation to them. Therefore, we should first seek God, and then study His will, needs etc.

[Deborah]

How can someone who proffessed his faith mere days ago be totally uprooted on the ridiculous grounds of pagan myth; it's gotta spiritual. So I think any Christian reading this should start praying for Brian.

I think the problem might be that while looking into this stuff, brian is neglecting his own faith by not studying it.

[Believer]

I DO believe in the trinity in the back of my mind but in the front, it is a brainstorm of problems. I said this to my Christian counselor. Its just HOW do it speperate what's real to what's not real? First there is the Christian God who started it all, then shortly after, pagan gods with their sons picked up like wildfire also having creation stories, so then maybe our Christian Bible is also pagan. Our Bible and the pagan stuff has similarities, books, miracles, resurrections, etc... How do we KNOW FOR SURE that our Bible isn't a myth? I know it has a bunch of great morals, but I am just how you say "VERY lost and confused". I had these dreams I shared, now I doubt them. I had a dream last night about the judgement, I doubt that, I prayed to God to show me a symbol/sign like the cross to show me that Jesus really did rise from the dead to save humanity, and a symbol appeared (neighbors were having their roofing redone, a guy threw pieces of wood down on the shed rooftop below, out of my rooms window which I am on the second floor, a cross formed with a third piece of wood at the base that was slanted). I mean if that was a real symbol, why three pieces of wood? There was scattered wood everywhere on the shed top, but what were the possibilities of the trown wood forming a cross? Can God use chance as a sign since a guy was throwing down wood? I don't know why I doubt so heavily as I do, I'm not turing atheist, but I am just kind of like a Christian skeptic, I don't know what to make of these dreams, visions, symbols/signs. They come from God, and I doubt they do. It may very well have to do with my OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I obsess about doubting, so I doubt. I dunno. But back to the pagan stuff, if there were multiple creation stories, how do we know which is the right one? How do we know anything to be true in the Bible?

[Kurieuo]

Examples of copycat? Examples of additions?

The NT aside, the doctrine central to Christianity is Christ's death and resurrection. Now there is ample historical evidence for the Jesus' death and burial, the tomb being empty, people seeing Jesus alive after His death. Such evidence comes from sources outside the Bible, and also from books that comprise the NT if we treat them as historical documents rather than the NT as one religious document.

Kurieuo, I did research on this and it might have been sloppy, but I am seeing a lot of copycat material between the pagan religions/gods/sons and the things of Jesus. The pagan stuff was before Jesus, so how can Jesus' life be real if it looks like copycat stuff from pagan roots? Jesus came after pagan material. I know that the OT says to not worship pagan gods and whatnot, so was Christianity actually first, a multitude of people followed Gods commands and did not follow pagan gods but others strayed from God's commands and created theri own Gods/Sons/religions? I can see why it is difficult to find Christianity true, the Jews don't follow the NT for a reason, they think it is false. The OT is more reliable. If we didn't have this pagan stuff, we probably would have less atheists/agnostics/non-religious people.

I only asked for examples HMG. You keep saying they look so much alike, but I don't see mention of any particular examples so how are we fellow Christians meant to respond?

But for the sake of things lets say there were similar events in pagan thought before that of Christ. It is interesting even that the early Christian theologian, Justin Martyr, considered several parallels of rising gods in other religions. His reason for bringing them up at a time Christians were often persecuted was to highlight that Christian teachings and claims were not all that different from the beliefs of other philosophies and relgions that enjoyed Rome's favour. Therefore Christians ought not to be persecuted. So let us assume there are similarities.

Now if pagan thoughts contained resurrection accounts, this still leaves open the question of whether or not Christianity took such beliefs and made them its own. Yet, we have excellent reasons from historical writings for accepting Jesus' resurrection, while rejecting others. For example, scholars broadly accept that that Jesus died and was buried, the tomb was found empty, and that the Apostles really did believe Jesus rose from the dead. Not even considering Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts or Corinthians as separate historical texts, we have writings from Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, and the Talmud that Jesus died due to crucifixion. Now since some of the apostolic fathers (those who succeeded the apostles) likely had contact with the apostles, we can look at what they say to know what the Apostles believed and passed on. For example, Irenaeus says (c. 185 AD), "Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been coversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing, and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone, for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles." Now Clement, who was in fellowship with the Apostles writes, "Therefore, having received orders and complete certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and believing in the Word of God, they [the apostles] went with the Holy Spirit's certainty, preaching the good news that the kingdom of God is about to come." Clement is clear that the apostles were assured by Jesus' resurrection, and went around claiming Jesus rose from the dead. Factor in the willingness of the disciples to die for their beliefs, such indicates that they certainly regarded what they passed on (i.e., Jesus' resurrection and His post-resurrection visits) as true. If they lied about Jesus rising from the dead, and infact stole His body as the Talmud reports, liars make poor martyrs. Noone questions the sincerity of the Muslim terrorist who blows himself up believing he will go to heaven and recieve many wives. Their willingness to do so, while it does not validate the truth of their beliefs, shows they certainly regard their beliefs as true. Yet, there is a difference between what a terrorist may believe, and the apostles. For unlike the terrorist, the apostles died not for beliefs they trusted others for, but for holding to the belief in their own testimony that they had personally seen Jesus risen.

So to summarise my post: The claims surrounding the events of Jesus' death and ressurection cannot be dismissed because similarities may be found elsewhere, because we have excellent reasons and evidences for accepting Jesus' resurrection as a historical fact.

Kurieuo.

[Felgar]

Its just HOW do it speperate what's real to what's not real?

It's so simple. Study what is real. STUDY THE BIBLE!

[Christian2]

I have a few more suggestions for you to consider, but first let me say that there is no way that you could have read and absorbed all of the website suggestions that have been given to you in such a short time, yet you come back with the same old song and dance. I could be wrong but it seems to me that you want someone else to do your homework for you.

You must take responsibility for your own beliefs.

Your comment that the Tektronics article had been refuted left me puzzled. You didn't say who refuted it or on what grounds it was refuted or what part was refuted. Do you always take the side of the skeptic?

What I am suggesting to you has already been suggested--read the Bible--but in addition to that enroll in a Bible Study program. Most churches have them. I took Discipleship and Jesus and the Gospels through the United Methodist Church, both are about 35 weeks long and have a workbook and require much Bible reading. Talk to your minister--call and make an appointment to go over some of your concerns. You might send a letter outlining your concerns so he or she can be properly prepared before you meet.

Buy the book, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. This book is a series of interviews with leading historians and scholars on a variety of subjects, one of which is Jesus' Resurrection. Most bookstore carry it or you can order it through Amazon.

And here are some more websites:

Authority of the Bible can be found at:

http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_main ... 68,00.html

The Inspiration of the Bible can be found at:

http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_main ... 68,00.html

Historical and Archaeological Evidence for Christianity can be found at:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/his ... _evid.html

(this site has many good links.)

Bible prophecies can be found at the following:

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/prophecy.htm

http://www.quiknet.com/~dfrench/evidence/prophecy.htm

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/aread ... efault.htm

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/aread ... efault.htm

Good luck with your search and may God guide you along your way.

[Judah]

Thanks for all those links, Christian2. There is real gold to be found in there.

I think it looks to me as though HMG is getting into a bit of a panic by becoming overwhelmed with information from all sides and NOT settling down to deal with one thing at a time.
I see too many broad generalizations and not enough clear specifics in your posts, HMG. You are confusing yourself.

It does take time to read through everything, think carefully about each point made, and so be able to properly understand and integrate it.
You cannot do that in one mad rush, and it seems to me you are charging around like a wounded bull, trying to know it all at once, and therefore winding up knowing none of it very well.
Relax and take your time over it.

Yep, a well-designed and taught study course sounds an excellent idea.
It would add a structure that could help keep you from darting all over the place, getting overwhelmed and confused in a way that is probably only feeding your doubts.

[jerickson314]

HMG, you did note that J.P. Holding actually has rebuttals to several of the rebuttals that have been made to "The Impossible Faith"? Chances are, he has already read the rebuttal you are referring to, and responded to it. If not, let him know. I'm sure he would be more than happy to refute it for you.

Judah is right in that you do need to go through things one point at a time. Doing too much at once can cause me doubt as well. I think I will always have doubt, and it is in fact partially due to my personality type (INTP). From http://www.typelogic.com/intp.html:

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

That describes me quite often, as I defend the faith and even consider both sides of the argument. (Incidentally, J.P. Holding is an INTJ, as described in the last sentence.) If I were to become an atheist, I'm sure I would doubt that just as much if not more. Incidentally, Blaise Pascal was also an INTP. Perhaps that's where Pascal's Wager came from. Maybe Pascal's Wager is an INTP thing...

[Believer]

HMG, you did note that J.P. Holding actually has rebuttals to several of the rebuttals that have been made to "The Impossible Faith"? Chances are, he has already read the rebuttal you are referring to, and responded to it. If not, let him know. I'm sure he would be more than happy to refute it for you.

Judah is right in that you do need to go through things one point at a time. Doing too much at once can cause me doubt as well. I think I will always have doubt, and it is in fact partially due to my personality type (INTP). From http://www.typelogic.com/intp.html:

A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves. The open-endedness (from Perceiving) conjoined with the need for competence (NT) is expressed in a sense that one's conclusion may well be met by an equally plausible alternative solution, and that, after all, one may very well have overlooked some critical bit of data. An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on their convictions.

That describes me quite often, as I defend the faith and even consider both sides of the argument. (Incidentally, J.P. Holding is an INTJ, as described in the last sentence.) If I were to become an atheist, I'm sure I would doubt that just as much if not more. Incidentally, Blaise Pascal was also an INTP. Perhaps that's where Pascal's Wager came from. Maybe Pascal's Wager is an INTP thing...

Hey there jerickson314, thanks. I went to a fellowship program tonight by myself and some guy came up to me after fellowship because he was intrigued by my testimonies. He told me to "not doubt the Lord". From what I type up in this tread, to me it makes sense and to me it is illogical statements I am making. So, yes, asanine statements are made from me. I've gotta stop doubting and start believing because I KNOW God IS showing me signs and dreams more often now to help me through this journey called life. I mean, just the other night, I prayed to God to reveal a simple sign to signify that Jesus Christ really did rise from the dead to save humanity to all believers, I prayed specifically for a cross symbol. Low and behold, the next morning, this one guy out of the other workers crew that was working on my next door neighbors roofing was tossing wood onto the shed below, I am in my bedroom just waking up looking out the window of my second story bedroom, and out of all the pieces of wood that were scattered (not many), my eyes focused as I woke up on 2 lengths of wood that look EXACTLY like the Jesus cross we all know, there was a third piece of wood that was slanted at the base of the cross. Because that third piece of wood, I doubted and thought it was by chance, but considering the fact that this guy was just tossing the wood on the top of the shed not caring where the wood landed, it just so happaned that a perfect cross formed. I prayed for a symbol, that must have been it, yet I doubt, and I just keep getting this feeling inside of me that is telling me to stop doubting, it is real, stop doubting. So that was just an addition to my other testimonies.

Also jerickson314, please don't become an atheist like you mentioned in some form in your post above. In my dream like I posted, I was told to love the person, not hate them, because frankly, they just don't know, that is what God told me. Also, just know, and you most likely already do, if you frequent atheist websites, it just is more visual poisen for you to read. I experienced this and I FLIPPED out not knowing what to believe anymore, but behind the scenes in my life, God HAS been working in my life getting me worked out in truth, I wouldn't write it off as chance by any means. God is real, because if you look at all these origins of universe theories, SOMETHING still had to start the universe even if the universe is infinite, something still had to start it. Jesus, although I have had many helpful resources, He is real, because we have external evidence/proof for Him. The Holy Spirit, well I was convicted by it when I was an agnostic/atheist, it met up with me last year in March, convicted me of my sins and I converted to Christianity, I am weak minded so I will accept just about everything. What I felt that night of conviction was and still is indescribable, but I know it was real.

[Judah]

HMG, you mentioned in a post above that you have OCD which may be playing some part in your doubts, having you "obsess about doubting".

I think it is important that you know (and keep reminding yourself) that God is true, faithful and unchanging.

Hebrews 6:16 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Whereas we may waver and have doubts this way and that, God stays the same and His promises do not change.

I am wondering if you are not asking God to keep proving Himself over and over, when He has already made promises which are there in writing, in the Bible, for you to read as often as you like.
Could it be that you may be looking for more and more "signs" when the promises are already there in writing for you?

I also understand that the need to do so may indeed be related to an OC disorder, and that it is very hard to stop without creating a lot of anxiety for yourself.

It might be helpful for you to turn frequently to chosen passages in your Bible and read them over and over. That way you will come to memorize them as well as benefit from the message and insights they impart.
As your confidence in God grows from knowing and feeding on His word, you may find yourself experiencing less doubt and be in less need of signs, themselves perhaps a little debateable and feeding of doubt.

[jerickson314]

Also jerickson314, please don't become an atheist like you mentioned in some form in your post above.

Don't worry. I was only being hypothetical.

Also, just know, and you most likely already do, if you frequent atheist websites, it just is more visual poisen for you to read.

It can be good if it is done to understand where the atheist is coming from. However, if your faith is weak, or if you take in too much, it can certainly be "visual poison".

Great testimony!

[jb48237]

Hello Brian,

You said: I can see why it is difficult to find Christianity true, the Jews don't follow the NT for a reason, they think it is false.

The reason that the Jews do not follow the New Testament is obvious. The New Testament is all about the Messiah, Jesus Christ. This Messiah was the special Messiah that the Jews were waiting for, mentioned throughout the Old Testament. The Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah so, of course, they would reject the NT.

Well, there are some good reasons why the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah. The most obvious one is that he did not bring the national redemption that the Jews expected.

The idea of "Salvation" as Christians use it is foriegn to Judaism. Jews do not have the same concept of "Sin" either, or any idea at all of "original sin". Yes, I know that Christians find referneces to these thing in the Old Testament, but that is only due to a Christian reading of the OT.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Hello Brian,

You said: I can see why it is difficult to find Christianity true, the Jews don't follow the NT for a reason, they think it is false.

The reason that the Jews do not follow the New Testament is obvious. The New Testament is all about the Messiah, Jesus Christ. This Messiah was the special Messiah that the Jews were waiting for, mentioned throughout the Old Testament. The Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah so, of course, they would reject the NT.

Well, there are some good reasons why the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah. The most obvious one is that he did not bring the national redemption that the Jews expected.

The idea of "Salvation" as Christians use it is foriegn to Judaism. Jews do not have the same concept of "Sin" either, or any idea at all of "original sin". Yes, I know that Christians find referneces to these thing in the Old Testament, but that is only due to a Christian reading of the OT.

Where's the proof for this one?

[Jbuza]

I DO believe in the trinity in the back of my mind but in the front, it is a brainstorm of problems. I said this to my Christian counselor. Its just HOW do it speperate what's real to what's not real? First there is the Christian God who started it all, then shortly after, pagan gods with their sons picked up like wildfire also having creation stories, so then maybe our Christian Bible is also pagan. Our Bible and the pagan stuff has similarities, books, miracles, resurrections, etc... How do we KNOW FOR SURE that our Bible isn't a myth? I know it has a bunch of great morals, but I am just how you say "VERY lost and confused". I had these dreams I shared, now I doubt them. I had a dream last night about the judgement, I doubt that, I prayed to God to show me a symbol/sign like the cross to show me that Jesus really did rise from the dead to save humanity, and a symbol appeared (neighbors were having their roofing redone, a guy threw pieces of wood down on the shed rooftop below, out of my rooms window which I am on the second floor, a cross formed with a third piece of wood at the base that was slanted). I mean if that was a real symbol, why three pieces of wood? There was scattered wood everywhere on the shed top, but what were the possibilities of the trown wood forming a cross? Can God use chance as a sign since a guy was throwing down wood? I don't know why I doubt so heavily as I do, I'm not turing atheist, but I am just kind of like a Christian skeptic, I don't know what to make of these dreams, visions, symbols/signs. They come from God, and I doubt they do. It may very well have to do with my OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I obsess about doubting, so I doubt. I dunno. But back to the pagan stuff, if there were multiple creation stories, how do we know which is the right one? How do we know anything to be true in the Bible?

Wow Brian, You sure are a Thinker. I think that is good, but we need to remember not to lean on our own understanding, and that we are saved through faith, not of ourselves. Another replied to you that we struggle with powers, and I wan't to assure you that Satan has been busy telling lies and inventing religous stories to confuse us for all of history.

Jesus warns us that these false teachings will be introduced, and that spirits will come. One of the greatest things about Jesus is that he came not in his own name, but came preaching about the Kingdom of God. Jesus did not come in his own name, and we need to test the spirits to see who's name they come in.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Revelation 16:14 - For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

I think that it is clear that the enemy is trying to confuse, and turn us away from God, it is evident from the scripture in revelations that God is going to one day allow Satan and his devils to Blind man, the Bible teaches that one day anyone that persecutes a Chrisitian will think he is doing God's work, because there will be a time when God will release the Beast and the False Prophet. Be assured Brian, Satan is not waiting to start his work on that Day, he is working hard in the world TODAY.