Wolfgang wrote:
RickD, yes, I agree with you that salvation, ultimately, comes through grace and not by law keeping or self righteousness. Don't you believe, though, that poor law keeping can adversely affect the fate of Christians?
NO! Once one has the indwelling Holy Spirit, one is sealed in Christ. The HS is God's promise that a believer's salvation is assured.
Wolfgang wrote:
How do you explain 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 which tells us CHRISTIAN adulterers, CHRISTIAN gays, CHRISTIAN drunks, CHRISTIAN thieves, and covetous CHRISTIANS will be barred from the Lord's kingdom? The word CHRISTIAN is not in those verses, but you can tell by the subject content that the verses are directed at Christian listeners.
Wolfgang, those passages aren't talking about Christians(believers). Look at the verses again, and see verse 11
1Corinthians 6:9-11:
Or ado you not know that the unrighteous will not binherit the kingdom of God? cDo not be deceived; dneither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor 1effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will ainherit the kingdom of God.
11 aSuch were some of you; but you were bwashed, but you were csanctified, but you were djustified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Some of the believers WERE...But now they are washed, sanctified, justified in Jesus Christ. These verses are talking about unbelievers.
Wolfgang wrote:
Explain that verse. It seems to want to say that grace has its limitations, correct? That verse appears to say that sins committed before baptism and conversion to Christianity ("sins of earlier times") are erased and forgotten by the gift of grace. Where in the Bible does it specifically say sins committed after repentance and baptism are completely covered and erased by grace? Yes, there is a verse or two that says if you confess your sins, Jesus is our Mediator (will defend us or stand up for us), etc., basically saying that grace can erase those sins, too, but those verses assume one is serious about not committing those sins again. If I am wrong, please correct me so that I will not misunderstand.
Wolfgang, Christ paid the price for ALL sins. Past, present and future. As I told KBC, in the flesh, being serious about not sinning, is futile. The flesh(sinful nature) naturally sins.
Revelation 14:12 reveals that the saints, the Christians, obey the laws in the commandments, most likely the 10 commandments, which would also most likely include the Saturday Sabbath law, a Mosaic law (which seems to imply other Mosaic laws are still in force, too [if I am wrong, please correct me]). Again, the Bible clearly tells us that it is grace that really saves us, but righteousness (or law keeping) seems to play some kind of very serious role in the fate and destiny of Christians. Does not that Revelation 14:12 verse imply something ominous about those who do not keep the commandments?
Wolfgang, Revelation 14 is highly symbolic. To equate Revelation with saying that keeping the law helps a believer keep his salvation, is not consistent with scripture.
In Acts 5:1-11 Ananias and Sapphira, apparently well respected, BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS possessing the Holy Spirit, were EXECUTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY for breaking one little, teeney weeney law, lying. How do you reconcile that poor couple's sad fate with the "once saved, always saved" and "saved by grace" idea?
Where does scripture say that they were believers?
What about James 2:12? Are you going to "sweep that under the rug?" "Throw it out the window?" "Delete it?" "Claim it is a misprint?" That verse commands Christians to do as those who will be judged by the law (Mosaic law since nomos, Strong's 3551, is in that verse). In other words, does not that verse command Christians to "copycat" and "mimic" the behavior of those who will be judged by the law (law keepers)? If not, please explain it so that we can understand it.
Judged by the law of LIBERTY.
wolfgang wrote:
Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?
Wolfgang, you are trying to understand difficult scripture when you don't even understand the basics. This is a case of trying to fly before you learn how to crawl. A believer or "Christian" is one who places his faith in Jesus Christ. I'm going to tell you the same thing I told KBC. You need to repent. Change your belief on who Jesus Christ is, and what he has done. You can't just believe in any "jesus". Jesus Christ is God! No other jesus has the power to save.