The Law

[PaulSacramento]

Without the Law to point to sin and helps us understand the nature of Sin, Grace wouldn't work, Christ's sacrifice would have been in vain.
Notice how people that do NOT believe in "sin" can't fathom either grace of Christ's sacrifice?
The Laws served it's purpose and that was to prepare Us for Christ, Grace and fellowship via the HS.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
First of all it's not a Jewish Sabbath, it's made to all His followers. I do my best to observe it on Saturday... Why? I believe it promotes unity among the believers. If we listen to the day Bob wants it, or Joe wants it, or Karen wants it, then you will get a multitude of different answers. Again it's true that we worship every day of the week.. I'm not knocking that. What I'm talking about here is CORPORATE worship. Where everyone in the body comes to worship together... This promotes UNITY.

How are you not seeing that the OT sabbath pointed to Christ. And, I'm not arguing that the actual day of the sabbath has changed. So, Bob, Joe and Karen are mistaken. You really think Christians worshiping however they think they should on Saturday promotes unity? Just look at all the threads here. Unity schmunity.

Yes, again we've been over this many many times.. Christian’s graft into the commonwealth of Israel and are co-citizens of the promises with the Jews Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24, Galatians 4:28. G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13. There is no house of the gentiles.. There are twelve gates on the city of the new Jerusalem Revelation 21:12. There are NO gates for the gentiles only for the tribes of Israel.. Either we graft into the house of Israel or we don't. It's that simple...

G, you are again conflating Israel as a theocratic nation, with what you are saying is spiritual Israel(Both Jews and Gentile Believers in Christ). Through Christ, Both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Christ are now one body.

I will say this... If it's not in your heart to follow G-d's laws then I would say please DON"T. Do NOT follow it if it is not in your heart.. Otherwise it will be for nothing.

G, that's my whole point. With the HS in me, it is in my heart to follow God's law of loving Him and my neighbor. Not cutting off my foreskin, going to temple on saturday, refraining from eating pork, memorizing Torah, etc.

[RickD]

Without the Law to point to sin and helps us understand the nature of Sin, Grace wouldn't work, Christ's sacrifice would have been in vain.
Notice how people that do NOT believe in "sin" can't fathom either grace of Christ's sacrifice?
The Laws served it's purpose and that was to prepare Us for Christ, Grace and fellowship via the HS.

WINNER WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!!!!

[Gman]

G, the question would then be, Which "law" is Romans 3:31 referring to? Through faith, Do we establish all the ceremonial OT laws? Or, do we establish the law of loving God and our neighbor?

Which laws? We didn't even have the NT Biblical canon until about 325 AD. Which laws do you think Paul was referring too? We haven't gotten away from any of the festivals or the Sabbaths... We follow them out of obedience.

Again, all the OT laws are summed up in the law to love God and your neighbor. And please don't say that by following the jewish Sabbath however one wants, is loving God. That's not consistent with what Christ came for.

No... Loving G-d and your neighbor is the ULTIMATE message of the Bible.. There is a mechanics in love however... Love has a meaning and direction also. Otherwise we will define it our own way which could be non-Biblcal.

Gdog, You are comparing OT laws given from God to the Jews, with laws of a secular govenment? Yes, that sure is a silly argument.

That isn't my point... My point is disobeying laws whether they are secular or Biblical. Regardless of their origin.

Faith in Christ puts us in "harmony" with God. Not trying in our own way to follow OT laws. Faith in Christ is the fulfillment of the OT laws. I don't understand how you can't see this. You understand all the OT ceremonies and festivals are foreshadows of Christ. Just as the law was the tutor that pointed to Christ.

Did you teach against homosexuality? Do you teach against adultery? Do you help the poor? Congratulations... You are teaching the OT laws....

[Gman]

And you are a moderator? Again a straw man. That is NOT what I have said. You continue to misrepresent my position and attack strawmen.

Oh yes, the old moderator guilt trip... You simply cannot address me Biblically..

If you think following your ammended version of the Mosaic law brings you in harmony with God, fine. But that isn't what you are saying. You are saying that following the law is the justified life. It is called back door legalism, which says, "oh the law doesn't save you. But if you're saved you'll follow it."
If you think following the law eridicates sin, then so be it. Paul explained carefully in Romans that the law, being Holy, exposed sin in his life. And of course in our own.

No.. I also said following G-d's commandments is also a way to identify SIN in our lives... Which makes me even fall more on His GRACE!

No one is calling for anarchy. Again, this is a strawman. I haven't said the law is void because we are unable to keep the Law. So, please stop misrepresenting my position. Paul had to answer these same questions. Is grace a license to sin? Heaven forbid.

Ok very good Jlay... I hope you understand the position..

[jlay]

Oh yes, the old moderator guilt trip... You simply cannot address me Biblically..

If the shoe fits.
And I have no idea what you mean by 'cannot address you Biblically.'

[Canuckster1127]

I don't see Gman appealing to or using his moderator status to silence anyone or as an appeal to authority on his part for his position.

Jlay, it's a cheap shot to throw his moderator status at him and has no bearing on the discussion. As it stands in this instance, I'm more in line with your position than his so this isn't about my position in that regard either. I know discussions get passionate and in that passion things can be said to express that emotion, but please, if you have an issue that you think brings a moderator status legitimately into play, then message the person and make your concern known and if that doesn't satisfy then let other moderators know and we will do what we can to address it. We're not perfect. We make mistakes. In this instance however, unless I'm missing something, I really don't think it's a relevant or fair issue to raise Jlay and I'd appreciate it if you would please be a little more careful in how you employ that tool in your posting.

[Gman]

We're not perfect. We make mistakes. In this instance however, unless I'm missing something

Thank you Bart... For the record, I'm far from perfect... In fact if I were to be judged right now, my sins would GREATLY out-weigh any good accomplishments (if any). Thank G-d for Christ that saves me for I would be literal toast. An embarrassment. A complete failure of G-d's laws...

[KBCid]

Again, we don't use G-d's laws to JUSTIFY ourselves or for salvation. We do it because we want to be in harmony with G-d and our fellow neighbors. We follow it because we need to eradicate sin form our lives.. It's a call for unification.

This is the crux G. none of us should look to be rewarded for doing what is right in Gods eyes... It is our duty to reflect our maker in our whole being from inside to outside. When we are in harmony with God then we would obey both old and new covenant laws as they were intended by our own choice... because we love God and his way more than we ever loved any way other than his.
I have seen a number of people here say that we cannot obey the laws but I have yet to see which of them cannot be obeyed. I would like to see a thread that directly deals with this subject. I want to see what laws are beyond our ability to 'choose' to obey. I know there were over 600 laws originally but I am quite confident that we can properly divide which still apply and which ones don't. Then we can address how the ones that should still apply are beyond a mans ability to obey... if we love God.
The two royal laws were Gods directive for how we were to live socially with him and all of his creation. He didn't give these as a one time test just to see if it was beyond mans ability to follow. These things will always be in effect because the being who demanded them did so because they reflect him, they reflect the true meaning of love which minimally is what God has defined himself as. If we want to coexist with him then we should also hold in high regard everything about him.
This is probably the hinge point of understanding Gods laws. For many they see his laws as being a burden because they don't hold the same feeling about them that he does. For those who consistently try to portray the performing of his laws as an action that is being asserted as a way to salvation they must feel that they have to do them just for the purpose of salvation but we both know that is an incorrect way of looking at it. I think the simplicity of the answer to those remarks would best be dealt with by saying "so you wouldn't perform the intent of those laws if God wasn't around demanding you to obey them?" My mind keeps recalling the part of scripture that speaks about this very point;
Rom 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness...

The essence of these verses is saying "when people who were not commanded to obey the laws of God still do obey them by their own nature then they are reflecting thier maker without being directed to do so and this makes them a law unto themselves which is already in harmony with their maker which he asserts is "written in their hearts" and the only laws that could be in reference here is the OT laws that defined how to love both God and man in a holy manner. Note that the gentiles spoken of here would not have been following the sacrificial or temple laws because they don't have a temple or a priesthood to perform them according to the OT so obviously this reference is in direct accord with those laws dealing with loving God and man.
If you love God and love his ways then you don't kill or steal or do anything against any of the other laws that define how we should live together.
Gods laws that deal specifically with how we are to live with him and man are a direct written reflection of love itself. So if we don't of our own free choosing desire to be that way then we don't desire his way. His laws can only be seen as a burden to those who don't naturally want to exist that way.

[KBCid]

And how do you choose which one's apply to you, Eenie meenie miney moe?

So you feel that to obey these laws would simply be the result of chance by game?

1) You shall not have other gods beside me.
2) You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but showing love down to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3) You shall not invoke the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished anyone who invokes his name in vain.
4) Remember the sabbath day—keep it holy. Six days you may labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God.f You shall not do any work, either you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your work animal, or the resident alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
5) Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
6) You shall not kill.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8 ) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

In my heart it seems quite offensive for anyone to infer that any of the laws like these are just a simple matter of chance for whether one should follow them or not. We are intelligent beings. If God were not here and we were then how many of these same laws would we come to by plain logic and reason and how many would we leave up to chance? These laws don't simply apply to just one nation they apply to anyone that wants to live together in peace and harmony in any time or place.

Rick you have said yourself that the laws showed us what a sin is and with this I definitely agree but tell me which of Gods laws that deal with loving God and man is beyond our ability to choose to do? If I were a thief wouldn't you tell me to stop doing that and come to Christ? Who would not want to do what is right and still expect God to welcome them into heaven?

[KBCid]

The Law served it's purpose and that was to prepare Us for Christ, Grace and fellowship via the HS.

How does thou shalt not kill prepare you for Christ? As far as I know the only part of the mosaic law that pointed to Christ were the sacrificial laws. These were the only ones that were temporary and could be fullfilled / ended.
All the other laws dealt with how to live in harmony with God and man and the body you exist within.
Is it beyond your free choice to obey those laws? Do you need the HS to force you to obey them?
It appears more and more that there is a concept being put forth that we cannot of our own free will choose to obey any of the laws so the HS will come in and force you to do what is right. I would like to hear how you feel the HS is going to make a difference. Will it remove your free will?

[Canuckster1127]

The issue isn't law or anarchy. That's a product of Aristotelian dualism. The issue is the purpose of the law and our relationship to God. The law doesn't cease to exist and as has been pointed out before, there are different elements of law within Scripture including societal, ceremonial and spiritual some of which can be seen to be temporal, some of which can be seen to be limited in scope to particular people and some of which represents universal truth.

The Law, as a system in Scripture, we're told in Romans exists, as PaulSacremento notes, to show us that morality and ethics rooted in performance cannot put us in right relationship with God. Law in that context only serves to show us that when we accept the all or nothing premise of Law as the foundation of our lives, that we need only fail in the smallest elements and we've effectively failed in all of it.

We are not in need of justice with regard to the law. What we need is grace and mercy and it is exactly that which is found in the person of Jesus Christ and that is the foundation of our relationship with God.

The law is not the cause that leads to the desired effect of bringing us to God. The law is the flashing warning signal that show us that this path will not bring us joy or success. The expression of our love for God leads to our living in accordance with those universals present in the law but in that context they are not cause .... they are effect. We live in the context of love and the "law" of love and this is why we seek to please God.

[Gman]

I thought I would add my two cents here... We are not going to know everything "why" we need to follow G-d's commandments nor actually know all the ones we need to do obey today. But we need to be open to them too... In fact if we believe in prophecy, many of these could come back in the millennium as well (like many of the temple services).

My personal belief is that if we as Christians are also part of the Commonwealth of Israel, then our walk will also reflect Israel's walk. Which was in fact was crippled or not normal Genesis 32:25-28. Scripture appears to be very clear that G-d wanted Israel to be set APART unto Him Leviticus 20:26, 1 Peter 2:9, 1 John 2:15. Therefore G-d will INVADE our daily walk.... FORCE us into communities, not only to what we think, but also what we wear, eat, or celebrate in our lives... This walk will not only invade the spiritual but the physical as well... If we don't then we could fall into the "I don't care" Babylonian lifestyle.

That is what I believe is going on here with obedience... A unity under G-d.. But it comes with a dress code, an eat code, a behavior code, a daily walk code, a worship code... And it's not hard to do however... I don't regret the least for trying.

G-d must have dominance over our lives if we claim obedience to Him or be separate unto Him from the nations.

[Canuckster1127]

The church is not Israel. That is indeed the big if. Israel was chosen by God to bless all nations by being the people God chose to be His covenant people to bless all nations. Israel mat still play a role in eschatology but that role is minor compared to the primary role already fulfilled in Christ.

Portions of the New Testament are written to Jewish believers and deals with these Jewish issues and the difficulty of seeing gentiles coming into Christ without the baggage of the old covenant and ways. When we read passages in the NT, it's important to ask who Paul or the other writers are writing to. That often helps to bring in balance and perspective.

That's my perspective anyway. I'm fine that others disagree and I'm fine with others who believe that the laws they follow worship and please God. You should follow the dictates of tour heart and conscience but don't presume to judge others who choose to live in the freedom of Christ with clear consciences as well.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
That is what I believe is going on here with obedience... A unity under G-d.. But it comes with a dress code, an eat code, a behavior code, a daily walk code, a worship code... And it's not hard to do however... I don't regret the least for trying.

Ok, this really bothers me G. Please correct me if I'm interpreting what you said wrongly. I thought believers had a "unity" under God because we share a saving faith in Christ. Not because we obey the law. All believers inside or outside all denominations that place their faith in Christ are the body of Christ, the bride of Christ, or the church of Christ. Our union is because of our faith in who Jesus Christ is, and what He did.
Gman, are you really meaning what you said as you said it above? That our unity as believers comes with obedience to an eating code, dress code, behavior code, etc.? Are you really advocating that our unity as the church of Christ is not from our faith in Christ alone, but from our faith in Christ plus our obedience to certain codes?