KBCid wrote:So if we are not expected to change our 'ways' and begin to live according to these understandings given by the warning signs then of what purpose are the warnings given?
RickD wrote:KBC, the purpose of the "warnings", or the law, Is to lead us to Christ. The law is there to show us that we can't keep it. Remember, if one is trying to keep the law, and fails at any point, then one is guilty of breaking the entire law. Christ came in the flesh, and followed the law without failing. It is by faith in who Christ is and what he did, we are justified before a God who demands perfection. It is Christ's perfection that saves those who place their faith in him. Not man's futile attempts to come to God through his own works, and attempting to follow the law.
Here we go with the works for salvation thing again. You still don't get my position even after the multitude of times I have directly addressed your acusations.
I know I have repeatedly stated that we cannot by automated process force the giving of the gift of eternal life by works. Why you keep pushing my position into that vein is beyond me. So for the millionth time KBCid says ephatically and without reserve that "no one can acheive eternal life without God gifting it to them". We cannot force God to give us life because of doing what is right. Doing what is right is our minimal duty.
Consider Adam and Eve... they were made in a sinless condition and continued in that state until they sinned. God gave them free choice to either obey his warnings about the fruit or not to. God left their choice up to them, he didn't cause them to choose a certain way but by their actions Adam and Eve caused a separation between themselves and God at the point that they stopped obeying his commandment. Their willful act of disobedience is what began this entire saga of sin separating man from God.
So it should be completely understood that our actions don't grant us godlike power to gain eternal life buuuut, our actions can separate us from God. If you willfully choose to kill others and don't turn from continuing that action then you can be certain that you will not gain eternal life. As far as I know from scripture there will be no muderers, liars etc. in heaven;
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
So if by your own free will you choose to keep on doing any of the things noted above then your works will definitely get you something.... just not eternal life. You will effectively separate yourself from God just as Adam and Eve did. Without free choice we cannot give God true love and this is what he wants. If you think God will come in and change a man to do his will against the mans free choice then God would not be getting true love and you would be wrong.
This is exactly why we are commanded to change and not just simply believe. Anyone can believe that Christ is the only way to heaven but without an internal desire to love God for his ways and be like him you will recieve nothing but an end of existence.
This understanding is stated in nearly the same way in both the old and new testaments.
OT references;
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
NT references;
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Notice those last two verses.... If we sin 'WILLFULLY', If you 'KNOWINGLY" sin after you have knowledge of the truth then there is no more sacrifice for sin. You must choose to turn from sinning, you must by your own free will turn from doing evil or you will lose the only accepted sacrifice for sin ever given. So ultimately you can perform works which definitely separate you from God but you can't perform works that automatically give you the gift of eternal life.
Do you get my position now? Do you understand that I am not promoting salvation by works? Do you also now understand that I am asserting that you can lose the possibility of salvation by willfully choosing to sin?
The bible has brought me to understand that if I choose of my own free will to desire to live with God forever that God will give me help to make it happen and he will ensure that I am not tempted to sin beyond my ability to freely choose not to sin. The holy spirit is the indwelling helper I am given to direct my path when I am unsure of what is proper and holy, the holy spirit is not a controller of mind and body forcing you against your free choice to do Gods will.
