The Law
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Canuckster1127
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Re: The Law
I yam what yam, and I think how I think.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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cheezerrox
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Re: The Law
Figured I might poke my head back in. Things got kinda ugly/tedious for a while, and I just didn't really see any positivity to be gleaned from joining in. But, things seem more friendly at the moment, and we even have some people agreeing 
.
Canuckster, I for one did understand what you were saying
, and would say I very much agree. I think you've made a really important point that needs to be confronted by the church.
The idea of law vs. grace is one that so permeates the evangelical church nowadays, but it's a false dichotomy. It's not Biblical. No conservative Christian can say that there aren't still commandments (Matt 22:36-40; John 13:34; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Thess 4:2; 1 John 2:3-4; Rev 14:12) and a Law (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2) for us to follow. We just disagree on which commandments we have to keep and how many Laws there are (I would say one, others would say two).
A couple points I want to make on things I see come up in this conversation often.
1) The idea that there are only two commandments for those in Christ to follow: to love G-d with all one's heart, soul, and might, and to love one's neighbor as himself.
This is based on a faulty understanding of a remark of Yeshua (Matt 22:36-40) and of reiterations of that teaching by Paul in his letters (Romans 13:9; Gal 5:14), as well as in the letter of James (James 2:8). This teaching is misunderstood because the church is so separated from its Jewish roots and from the historical/cultural/theological context these teachings were taught in. There are instances in the Tanakh (Old Testament) of the prophets summing up G-d's Torah in a few moral principles. Isaiah does so at Isaiah 1:16-17,
"Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow."
Note also verses 11-14,
"'What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?'
Says HaShem.
'I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New Moon and Shabbat, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.'"
The same thing happens at Micah 6:8, although I want to add in verses 6-7 because I think they're important for my point.
"With what shall I come to HaShem
And bow myself before the G-d on high?
Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings,
With yearling calves?
Does HaShem take delight in thousands of rams,
In ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts,
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does HaShem require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your G-d?"
Now remember, this is "Old Testament" times still. By saying that G-d simply wants us to "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly before Him," was He saying that keeping Shabbat wasn't necessary? Was He saying that eating swine or shaving your beard weren't sins? Of course we'd all agree that the answer is no. What about when G-d says through Isaiah and Micah that the offerings are "worthless" and that He takes no pleasure in them, or in the celebration of Shabbat, the New Moons, and the appointed festivals? What would happen if the hearers of these prophets then stopped performing sacrifices? Remember, this is the Old Covenant. It would've been sin.
There's a famous story in the Talmud- of two contemporary rabbis, Hillel and Shammai (both from a little bit before Yeshua's day). They both had schools of study and represented opposite ends of Jewish thought/theology; Hillel being the more tolerant and compassionate, and Shammai being more of a stickler for the law. Yeshua's teachings coincide strikingly well with Hillel's; He was probably a fan. In this story, a gentile leaves behind the idols of his people and wants to start worshipping the G-d of Israel. But the barrier is the Torah; he knows nothing of it, and knows that to the Jewish people, it is the source of all knowledge of G-d, how He wants to be served, and how he wants to have His people live. He decides he doesn't have the time to learn the whole Torah, and resolves to go to the most eminent of the sages to have them teach him a short version of the Torah. Going first to Shammai, he asks, "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot!" Ie; teach me the whole Torah in a couple minutes. Now, Shammai had a measuring rod in his hand at the time. Thinking of the audacity and ignorance of this gentile asking to be taught the entire Torah of Moses while standing on on foot, Shammai scared him off with a good whack. Shaken but still steadfast, the gentile goes to Rabbi Hillel. Asking again, "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot!" Hillel replies, "What is hateful to you, do not do unto others (cf. Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31). The rest is commentary - go and study."
Now, Hillel obviously didn't mean that since the golden rule (or its negative form) is the underlying principle of Torah that the rest is unnecessary, or that one needn't keep all the commandments if he "got" the spiritual, deeper meaning behind them. He simply summed them up. It was a Biblical practice. It was done to make Torah less daunting, more accessible, appear more unified, and to encourage people to follow it. Yeshua's doing of this same practice implies nothing more than that our Rabbi used a rabbinical teaching technique, that is rooted in Scripture. Any other implications found in His (or Paul's, or James') statement are read into it. The "work of G-d" is beliving in the One Whom He sent, most definitely. But that doesn't mean one can believe and still murder and be found guiltless, does it? Instead it means, "by believing, one has done what is required of him. And by believing, he will be led to obey." Obedience is an extention of faith, not the other way around.
But one may say, "Well, that's all well and good for someone following the Old Covenant, but I don't see anything in the New Testament telling me to keep the Sabbath, or to not eat shellfish, or to celebrate the feast of Pentecost." This leads me to my next point.
2) The idea that if it's not taught or commanded in the "New Testament," it needn't be practiced/followed.
This one is one that the church is so fond of these days, and yet there's no Biblical support for it. Where in the Gospels will you see Yeshua answer one who comes to Him asking how one obtains eternal life, "You must follow these teachings of Mine, which are new. The old way cannot save you"? Where in Paul's letters do you see him saying, "This is the new way of how you should walk," or "Here are the new commandments." His teachings are original, obviously, but they're rooted in Scripture (Old Testament)/Torah. His ethical and daily practice teachings along with his theological ones. Why in Revelation (Rev 14:12) are the saints referred to as the ones who keep their faith in Jesus and who "keep the commandments of G-d"? Note that the Apostolic Scriptures rarely if ever explicitly say "Yeshua is G-d," but instead proclaim His divinity in more nuanced ways (not that the doctrine of Yeshua isn't clear; it is, but it's not stated in such a way in the Apostolic Writings).
To say that one only follows the teachings/commandments of the "New Testament" is to misunderstand its scope and purpose. No book of New Covenant Scripture proclaims to have the list of commandments for those "in Christ." Instead, they always refer back to Torah/Tanakh (Matt 22:36-40; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17).
Hopefully this will provide some fuel for further good discussions. Peace and blessings to everyone, hope you've had a great new year.
.Canuckster, I for one did understand what you were saying
, and would say I very much agree. I think you've made a really important point that needs to be confronted by the church.The idea of law vs. grace is one that so permeates the evangelical church nowadays, but it's a false dichotomy. It's not Biblical. No conservative Christian can say that there aren't still commandments (Matt 22:36-40; John 13:34; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Thess 4:2; 1 John 2:3-4; Rev 14:12) and a Law (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2) for us to follow. We just disagree on which commandments we have to keep and how many Laws there are (I would say one, others would say two).
A couple points I want to make on things I see come up in this conversation often.
1) The idea that there are only two commandments for those in Christ to follow: to love G-d with all one's heart, soul, and might, and to love one's neighbor as himself.
This is based on a faulty understanding of a remark of Yeshua (Matt 22:36-40) and of reiterations of that teaching by Paul in his letters (Romans 13:9; Gal 5:14), as well as in the letter of James (James 2:8). This teaching is misunderstood because the church is so separated from its Jewish roots and from the historical/cultural/theological context these teachings were taught in. There are instances in the Tanakh (Old Testament) of the prophets summing up G-d's Torah in a few moral principles. Isaiah does so at Isaiah 1:16-17,
"Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow."
Note also verses 11-14,
"'What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?'
Says HaShem.
'I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New Moon and Shabbat, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.'"
The same thing happens at Micah 6:8, although I want to add in verses 6-7 because I think they're important for my point.
"With what shall I come to HaShem
And bow myself before the G-d on high?
Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings,
With yearling calves?
Does HaShem take delight in thousands of rams,
In ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts,
The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does HaShem require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your G-d?"
Now remember, this is "Old Testament" times still. By saying that G-d simply wants us to "do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly before Him," was He saying that keeping Shabbat wasn't necessary? Was He saying that eating swine or shaving your beard weren't sins? Of course we'd all agree that the answer is no. What about when G-d says through Isaiah and Micah that the offerings are "worthless" and that He takes no pleasure in them, or in the celebration of Shabbat, the New Moons, and the appointed festivals? What would happen if the hearers of these prophets then stopped performing sacrifices? Remember, this is the Old Covenant. It would've been sin.
There's a famous story in the Talmud- of two contemporary rabbis, Hillel and Shammai (both from a little bit before Yeshua's day). They both had schools of study and represented opposite ends of Jewish thought/theology; Hillel being the more tolerant and compassionate, and Shammai being more of a stickler for the law. Yeshua's teachings coincide strikingly well with Hillel's; He was probably a fan. In this story, a gentile leaves behind the idols of his people and wants to start worshipping the G-d of Israel. But the barrier is the Torah; he knows nothing of it, and knows that to the Jewish people, it is the source of all knowledge of G-d, how He wants to be served, and how he wants to have His people live. He decides he doesn't have the time to learn the whole Torah, and resolves to go to the most eminent of the sages to have them teach him a short version of the Torah. Going first to Shammai, he asks, "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot!" Ie; teach me the whole Torah in a couple minutes. Now, Shammai had a measuring rod in his hand at the time. Thinking of the audacity and ignorance of this gentile asking to be taught the entire Torah of Moses while standing on on foot, Shammai scared him off with a good whack. Shaken but still steadfast, the gentile goes to Rabbi Hillel. Asking again, "Teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot!" Hillel replies, "What is hateful to you, do not do unto others (cf. Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31). The rest is commentary - go and study."
Now, Hillel obviously didn't mean that since the golden rule (or its negative form) is the underlying principle of Torah that the rest is unnecessary, or that one needn't keep all the commandments if he "got" the spiritual, deeper meaning behind them. He simply summed them up. It was a Biblical practice. It was done to make Torah less daunting, more accessible, appear more unified, and to encourage people to follow it. Yeshua's doing of this same practice implies nothing more than that our Rabbi used a rabbinical teaching technique, that is rooted in Scripture. Any other implications found in His (or Paul's, or James') statement are read into it. The "work of G-d" is beliving in the One Whom He sent, most definitely. But that doesn't mean one can believe and still murder and be found guiltless, does it? Instead it means, "by believing, one has done what is required of him. And by believing, he will be led to obey." Obedience is an extention of faith, not the other way around.
But one may say, "Well, that's all well and good for someone following the Old Covenant, but I don't see anything in the New Testament telling me to keep the Sabbath, or to not eat shellfish, or to celebrate the feast of Pentecost." This leads me to my next point.
2) The idea that if it's not taught or commanded in the "New Testament," it needn't be practiced/followed.
This one is one that the church is so fond of these days, and yet there's no Biblical support for it. Where in the Gospels will you see Yeshua answer one who comes to Him asking how one obtains eternal life, "You must follow these teachings of Mine, which are new. The old way cannot save you"? Where in Paul's letters do you see him saying, "This is the new way of how you should walk," or "Here are the new commandments." His teachings are original, obviously, but they're rooted in Scripture (Old Testament)/Torah. His ethical and daily practice teachings along with his theological ones. Why in Revelation (Rev 14:12) are the saints referred to as the ones who keep their faith in Jesus and who "keep the commandments of G-d"? Note that the Apostolic Scriptures rarely if ever explicitly say "Yeshua is G-d," but instead proclaim His divinity in more nuanced ways (not that the doctrine of Yeshua isn't clear; it is, but it's not stated in such a way in the Apostolic Writings).
To say that one only follows the teachings/commandments of the "New Testament" is to misunderstand its scope and purpose. No book of New Covenant Scripture proclaims to have the list of commandments for those "in Christ." Instead, they always refer back to Torah/Tanakh (Matt 22:36-40; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17).
Hopefully this will provide some fuel for further good discussions. Peace and blessings to everyone, hope you've had a great new year.
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel
- Abraham Joshua Heschel
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Actually Bart, it makes a lot of sense. And I agree with just about everything you said. I told you, whenever I can understand what you're saying(whenever you dumb it down for me), I usually agree with you.Canuckster wrote:
This probably doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't always express it well.
Bart, I think I've finally figured out how you can talk down to my level so I can understand you. If you stay up for 48 hours straight, so your brain isn't working at full capacity, you are talking closer to my level. Maybe if you stayed up for a week straight, my brain power would be equal to yours.I'm writing this at near 1 am in the morning and have been awake for the past 48 hours so if this sounds manic or confused, please forgive me. I'm trying to capture it before I go to bed. It's a lot to consider and I've only really been tuned into this for the past 4 or 5 years and I'm still growing with it and I don't know how well I convey it.
Bart, I just have one question for you. If it's too personal, you don't have to answer. Do you occasionally
enjoy a good slice of bacon, or a delicious ham sandwich?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Gman
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Re: The Law
Guys and cheezerrox... I think we need to make it clear however that we DON'T swallow everything Jewish either... We don't become ethnic Jews.. We most certainly don't give any authority to the Rabbinical laws or the Talmud, which are the Oral laws or additions to the Tanach.. These are called traditions of men or "Takanot" and Yeshua taught greatly against them. We also don't take G-d's laws and turn them into crippling curses... Example if someone is hurt on the Sabbath, we don't bring them to the hospital? Or blood transfusions.. This is what Yeshua was talking about.. Turning G-d's Laws into legalism.... We should never take part in this. We follow only in love.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Gman, you can't pull the wool over our eyes. You're a full-fledged Jew. Stop trying to say otherwise.Gman wrote:Guys and cheezerrox... I think we need to make it clear however that we DON'T swallow everything Jewish either... We don't become ethnic Jews.. We most certainly don't give any authority to the Rabbinical laws or the Talmud, which are the Oral laws or additions to the Tanach.. These are called traditions of men or "Takanot" and Yeshua taught greatly against them. We also don't take G-d's laws and turn them into crippling curses... Example if someone is hurt on the Sabbath, we don't bring them to the hospital? Or blood transfusions.. This is what Yeshua was talking about.. Turning G-d's Laws into legalism.... We should never take part in this. We follow only in love.
Gman, I Love You, Brother!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
-
Canuckster1127
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Re: The Law
I love bacon, ham and still have the aftertaste of little smokies in my mouth while I am writing this .......
I would never threaten anyone with a gun, but people can have my ham sandwich when they pry it from my cold, dead Tupperware ........
I would never threaten anyone with a gun, but people can have my ham sandwich when they pry it from my cold, dead Tupperware ........
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Gman
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Re: The Law
RickD wrote: Gman, you can't pull the wool over our eyes. You're a full-fledged Jew. Stop trying to say otherwise.
Gman, I Love You, Brother!
Ok now both of you guys are getting way too personal...Canuckster1127 wrote:I love bacon, ham and still have the aftertaste of little smokies in my mouth while I am writing this .......
I would never threaten anyone with a gun, but people can have my ham sandwich when they pry it from my cold, dead Tupperware ........
Yikes.... Watch out you bacon haters..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Bart, you're a man after my own heart...I mean stomach. You're making me hungry.Canuckster wrote:
I love bacon, ham and still have the aftertaste of little smokies in my mouth while I am writing this .......
Now that's where I draw the line! Real men use Rubbermaid. Tupperware is for sissies.Canuckster wrote:
I would never threaten anyone with a gun, but people can have my ham sandwich when they pry it from my cold, dead Tupperware ........
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
-
Zionist
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Re: The Law
@Rick
first off i would like to apologize to you for overreacting. i know now you were just joking but it did upset me because i have deep love towards the jewish people. i get upset when i see fellow believers separate themselves from their jewish brehteren but i do respect you rick as a brother in messiah so i just wanted to make that clear to you. i would like to add that a lot of believers now unfortunately have a negative perspective of Torah but from my studies i have seen that Torah is not negative nor is it bad. it is from God and is holy. so many years of separation from our hebraic roots has made us lose sight of what Torah really means so i would like to encourage all believers to put whatever denominational belief aside and just truly stay in God's word alone to find the answers to difficult questions we have. Yeshua is our salvation and salvation is a free gift from God. as we walk in His light and truly seek truth he'll reveal that to us helping us all answer difficult questions.
first off i would like to apologize to you for overreacting. i know now you were just joking but it did upset me because i have deep love towards the jewish people. i get upset when i see fellow believers separate themselves from their jewish brehteren but i do respect you rick as a brother in messiah so i just wanted to make that clear to you. i would like to add that a lot of believers now unfortunately have a negative perspective of Torah but from my studies i have seen that Torah is not negative nor is it bad. it is from God and is holy. so many years of separation from our hebraic roots has made us lose sight of what Torah really means so i would like to encourage all believers to put whatever denominational belief aside and just truly stay in God's word alone to find the answers to difficult questions we have. Yeshua is our salvation and salvation is a free gift from God. as we walk in His light and truly seek truth he'll reveal that to us helping us all answer difficult questions.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Zionist, to be honest, I forgot about what you said before. I have a horrible memory. What do you say we let bygones be bygones, and reconcile over a ham and bacon club sandwich? We can even have it on unleavened bread!Zionist wrote:
first off i would like to apologize to you for overreacting.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
-
Gman
- Old School
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- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
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Re: The Law
Amen.. And thank you for posting this... After I removed all the stereotypes from the OT laws or Tanach, I can't really see NOTHING bad about following Torah.. In fact, I have finally achieved great peace in my life.. Finally after many many years.. But no one ever explained it to me to where I understood it.Zionist wrote:@Rick
first off i would like to apologize to you for overreacting. i know now you were just joking but it did upset me because i have deep love towards the jewish people. i get upset when i see fellow believers separate themselves from their jewish brehteren but i do respect you rick as a brother in messiah so i just wanted to make that clear to you. i would like to add that a lot of believers now unfortunately have a negative perspective of Torah but from my studies i have seen that Torah is not negative nor is it bad. it is from God and is holy. so many years of separation from our hebraic roots has made us lose sight of what Torah really means so i would like to encourage all believers to put whatever denominational belief aside and just truly stay in God's word alone to find the answers to difficult questions we have. Yeshua is our salvation and salvation is a free gift from God. as we walk in His light and truly seek truth he'll reveal that to us helping us all answer difficult questions.
About the Jewish people, many Christians forget that G-d has not forgotten His people the Jews Romans 11:1-2, Jewish people are only blind to their messiah in part, Romans 11:25. And G-d is still in the process of fulfilling His promises to them Romans 11:28-32. And I would add here I believe the Jews are actually correct in many ways in following the Torah... Why? Because when Christ or Yeshua comes back, He will be teaching us Torah from Jerusalem for a thousand years.. Isaiah 2:2-3; 42:6, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 14:16, Isaiah 56:7, Ezekiel 44:24; 45:17; 46:9-11. We will finally live under Him in a beautiful theocracy where we will have no more wars or death. That is why we really need to be supporting the Israeli bandwagon. Technically we and the Jews are still brothers..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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KBCid
- Senior Member
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:16 am
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Undecided
Re: The Law
Well technically they are natural branches. The rest are grafted in. Same tree thoGman wrote: Technically we and the Jews are still brothers..
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
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Gman
- Old School
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- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
- Christian: Yes
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- Creation Position: Day-Age
- Location: Northern California
Re: The Law
Yes.. As long as that tree is rooted in Yeshua. My personal belief on that is many will convert when they see Him coming through the clouds, when they call out for their Messiah Matthew 23:39, Zech 12:10-11. But I think they will be happy with Yeshua when they find out that He was a Jew all along and that all the Torah laws will come back under Him. Yeshua will actually not be coming against His Jewish people. He will be coming to protect and exult them. Anyways this is how I see it..KBCid wrote:Well technically they are natural branches. The rest are grafted in. Same tree thoGman wrote: Technically we and the Jews are still brothers..
Until the time comes, we will have to play along with the plot... And wait..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
- Make me a Sammich Member
- Posts: 22063
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- Christian: Yes
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- Location: Kitchen
Re: The Law
G, I can't help but wonder what it's like for a Jew who knows the OT. What's it like for him when his eyes are opened, and he sees Jesus Christ for who He really is. When he really sees that Jesus is the fulfillment of all the OT celebrations. Have you ever talked to anyone who has been a devout Jew all his life who has come to accept Jesus Christ? It must make for an amazing conversation.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Gman
- Old School
- Posts: 6081
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
- Christian: Yes
- Sex: Male
- Creation Position: Day-Age
- Location: Northern California
Re: The Law
I talked to some Orthodox Jews once at the Kotel and they told me that they couldn't stand JC. In fact they didn't even want to pronounce His name because of the way Christians have persecuted Jews and made a mockery of G-d's commandments. Well we next generation of Christians hope to change all that.. And follow all the fun Biblical festivals too.. In fact I think I want to take all the Sabbaths and Biblical festivals that Christians don't want and store them up in my barn so that others can enjoy them... After all, they don't want them.. Right?RickD wrote:G, I can't help but wonder what it's like for a Jew who knows the OT. What's it like for him when his eyes are opened, and he sees Jesus Christ for who He really is. When he really sees that Jesus is the fulfillment of all the OT celebrations. Have you ever talked to anyone who has been a devout Jew all his life who has come to accept Jesus Christ? It must make for an amazing conversation.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8