Wolfgang wrote:RickD, yes, I agree with you that salvation, ultimately, comes through grace and not by law keeping or self righteousness. Don't you believe, though, that poor law keeping can adversely affect the fate of Christians? How do you explain 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 which tells us CHRISTIAN adulterers, CHRISTIAN gays, CHRISTIAN drunks, CHRISTIAN thieves, and covetous CHRISTIANS will be barred from the Lord's kingdom? The word CHRISTIAN is not in those verses, but you can tell by the subject content that the verses are directed at Christian listeners.
Fleshly living can adversely affect the fellowship of a believer. But that is a whole different topic. Trying to mix the two only produces legalism and a false Gospel.
Is the term "inheriting the Kingdom" equivalent to salvation? If you say yes, then I say prove it.
Explain that verse. It seems to want to say that grace has its limitations, correct?
I would say Grace has no limits, only conditions. Right belief in Christ being the condition.
That verse appears to say that sins committed before baptism and conversion to Christianity ("sins of earlier times") are erased and forgotten by the gift of grace. Where in the Bible does it specifically say sins committed after repentance and baptism are completely covered and erased by grace? Yes, there is a verse or two that says if you confess your sins, Jesus is our Mediator (will defend us or stand up for us), etc., basically saying that grace can erase those sins, too, but those verses assume one is serious about not committing those sins again. If I am wrong, please correct me so that I will not misunderstand.
It says we are baptized into one body when we believe and sealed with a promise, not our performance.
Revelation 14:12 reveals that the saints, the Christians, obey the laws in the commandments, most likely the 10 commandments, which would also most likely include the Saturday Sabbath law, a Mosaic law (which seems to imply other Mosaic laws are still in force, too [if I am wrong, please correct me]). Again, the Bible clearly tells us that it is grace that really saves us, but righteousness (or law keeping) seems to play some kind of very serious role in the fate and destiny of Christians. Does not that Revelation 14:12 verse imply something ominous about those who do not keep the commandments?
you are making a lot of assumptions. And taking a lot of liberty to impose your views onto the text. Is Revelation speaking of how things are now, or will be at a given time for a given people?
Explain 1 Corinthians 9:27. Paul admits he himself could lose his salvation if he falls short of one or more standards. If you believe "once saved, always saved," explain that verse. The verse seems to say that failure to be righteous enough can cost you your salvation. If it does not say that, explain to us what it says so that we can all accurately understand it.
OK, follow you same line of reasoning consistently and contextually. Are you saying that getting to heaven is a race, and you have to compete against other Christians for a spot? Paul never mentions salvation. Once again you are importing your presuppositions onto the text.
In Acts 5:1-11 Ananias and Sapphira, apparently well respected, BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS possessing the Holy Spirit, were EXECUTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY for breaking one little, teeney weeney law, lying. How do you reconcile that poor couple's sad fate with the "once saved, always saved" and "saved by grace" idea?
Where does it say they aren't saved? It doesn't. Do you see believers or non-beleivers dropping dead for such things today? Could it be that perhaps what was happening around the little flock in Jerusalme is NOT what is happening today?
What about James 2:12? Are you going to "sweep that under the rug?" "Throw it out the window?" "Delete it?" "Claim it is a misprint?" That verse commands Christians to do as those who will be judged by the law (Mosaic law since nomos, Strong's 3551, is in that verse). In other words, does not that verse command Christians to "copycat" and "mimic" the behavior of those who will be judged by the law (law keepers)? If not, please explain it so that we can understand it.
First the book is specifically addressed to Jews. James 1:1
2nd. Don't just say 'what about it?' Show us, what is the law that gives freedom. And why would that be important to one of these Jews?
Explain Matthew 7:23 so that I can better understand it. That verse is about some kind of law keeping. Whatever kind of law keeping it is about, it seems that Christians deficient in that department will be affected.
Matt. 7 is the SOM, and is for contemporary Jews. Jesus said not to go the way of the Gentiles, but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Are you saying Jesus was confused about his earthly ministry?
Again, I fully understand that grace, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus for our sins (past, prebaptismal sins only according to Romans 3:25 [if I am wrong here, please correct me]) is what really, really saves us, not righteousness or any kind of obedience to laws. But from the above verses, it looks like breaking laws can really hurt us Christians, correct?
No, you don't. I'd say you don't understand grace at all. Walking in the flesh, and can really hurt us Christians. But there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
RickD, so even Hebrews 10:26,27,29,31 doesn't scare you either? Verse 27 is most likely referring to the lake of fire. Generally, I don't think any one sin (there probably are exceptions) can result in a loss of salvation for a Christian, but rather a "falling away from" Christianity and consistently, deliberately sinning (involving the more serious sins probably) that can cost one his salvation. Many well respected Christians believe Hebrews 10:26,27,29,31 is "iron clad, rock solid, re-enforced steel concrete" proof that salvation can be lost under certain conditions and is quite conditional.
There are many commentaries that deal with these verses. If you want to hold this interpretation, then you need to be consistent. Have you sinned since being a Christian? Then there is no sacrifice for that sin. You are doomed.
Just like with Hebrews 6:4-6. "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."
If we follow Wolf's hermanuetic, then sinning after believing means you are condemned to Hell with no hope. So, Wolf, I guess you think that you are meeting the standard? Are you? Or, are you condemning yourself to hell with no hope.
It still amazes me that legalists aren't concerned with the greatest sin. Not taking God's grace and free gift of salvation at His word, but trying to add to it through religion. Sad.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious