Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?

[Wolfgang]

Regarding John 6:29, it looks like the key word you are referring to is "believe," to merely believe with no when appropriate, related follow through actions. What about John 3:36? Could you help me to understand that verse better? The last part of John 3:36 contains the Greek word "apeitheo," Strong's 544 which means to refuse belief and obedience. The following translations are the more literal translations of John 3:36.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever DISOBEYS the Son will never have life," --- Today's English Version
"........ those who don't believe AND OBEY Him shall never see heaven ........" --- Living Bible
"........ he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- Revised Standard Version
"........ but he who DISOBEYS the Son shall not see that life ........" --- New English Bible
"........ but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life ........" --- New American Standard
"........ whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- English Standard Version
"........ whoever DISOBEYS the Son will not have life ........" --- Good News Translation
"Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not OBEY the Son will never have life ........" --- New Century Version

Jesus, our Lord, commanded us (though indirectly) to tithe in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42. That is a Mosaic law. Since Jesus is Who He is, even an indirect command must be considered as good as a direct command, don't you think so?

No part of the above was copied from someone else's website. The above is strictly from my own research and study, from notes, etc.

[Gman]

Regarding John 6:29, it looks like the key word you are referring to is "believe," to merely believe with no when appropriate, related follow through actions. What about John 3:36? Could you help me to understand that verse better? The last part of John 3:36 contains the Greek word "apeitheo," Strong's 544 which means to refuse belief and obedience. The following translations are the more literal translations of John 3:36.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever DISOBEYS the Son will never have life," --- Today's English Version
"........ those who don't believe AND OBEY Him shall never see heaven ........" --- Living Bible
"........ he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- Revised Standard Version
"........ but he who DISOBEYS the Son shall not see that life ........" --- New English Bible
"........ but he who does not OBEY the Son will not see life ........" --- New American Standard
"........ whoever does not OBEY the Son shall not see life ........" --- English Standard Version
"........ whoever DISOBEYS the Son will not have life ........" --- Good News Translation
"Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not OBEY the Son will never have life ........" --- New Century Version

Jesus, our Lord, commanded us (though indirectly) to tithe in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42. That is a Mosaic law. Since Jesus is Who He is, even an indirect command must be considered as good as a direct command, don't you think so?

No part of the above was copied from someone else's website. The above is strictly from my own research and study, from notes, etc.

Yes this is what I'm starting to see as well... Plus it would appear the Christ was saying John 6:29 in the context of performing a miracle back in John 6:10-14, 26. Faith and obedience have to be united. The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. When G-d looks at us and sees righteousness, it is because of our faith. Even the example of Abraham in the binding of Isaac, if you really consider it, that fact that G-d declared him righteous is not from the act of offering Isaac, since he didn’t actually complete the task, but the willingness to offer Isaac on the basis of G-d’s command.

[KBCid]

KBC wrote:Fact of physics and life no one can be defined as a helper if they do all the work.

KBC, how does that "fact" hold up when it comes to the sanctification of a believer?

What does sanctification of a believer have anything to do with one who decides he is no longer a believer?

A believer cannot lose his salvation. Why? Because God will not allow it!

Rick, My understanding so far about sanctification;

sanctification
the state of growing in divine grace as a result of Christian commitment after baptism or conversion

sanctify
to free from sin : purify
to make productive of holiness or piety <observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it
merriam-webster.com

I would assume that we all here have a basic understanding that sanctification is a process that occurs over time, but I could be wrong on this.

If we look at the definition of sanctification the understood meaning being given for it includes a major dependancy within its meaning "as a result of Christian commitment". A commitment is the continuing action put forth by the Christian (one who believes in Christ). Sanctifying is the process of being purified which infers that one does not become holy the moment they accept Christ.

So according to everything I have read in the bible and the meanings that have been defined we as Christians are to make a commitment to accept Christ and God as the way to acheive eternal life and then we move forward through time learning with the HS help to present ourselves as a holy dwelling place for God to dwell within. MY position at this point is that God is not going to perform any action that removes our free will.
It appears that there is some controversy even here between a believers free will and the actions that God will perform relative to the believers own will. My understanding comes down to this Rick Gods promise has a dependancy on the commitment of the believer. Evidence for this position is given throughout the new testament from the apostles givin warnings to the believers that they sent their letters to avoid things or to do things a certain way etc. etc.
The physics (so to say) of this rationale can be encapsulated in this;
If a believer, upon the simple action of believing alone, is automatically saved then there would have been no need for any process of learning past that point nor would there be any need of for warnings and the indwelling HS would not be a 'helper' as there would be nothing in the believer having a need for help with.
If as you infer Rick that once a believer is saved then there is nothing they can do to lose it then to me this means that the believer has lost the ability of free choice.

[Gman]

If a believer, upon the simple action of believing alone, is automatically saved then there would have been no need for any process of learning past that point nor would there be any need of for warnings and the indwelling HS would not be a 'helper' as there would be nothing in the believer having a need for help with.
If as you infer Rick that once a believer is saved then there is nothing they can do to lose it then to me this means that the believer has lost the ability of free choice.

Yes I believe that Hebrews 11 covers that very well too.. Love and faith comes before our works in obedience too. And it appears that we obey even if we don't understand exactly why either..

Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[KBCid]

Yes this is what I'm starting to see as well... Plus it would appear the Christ was saying John 6:29 in the context of performing a miracle back in John 6:10-14, 26. Faith and obedience have to be united. The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. When G-d looks at us and sees righteousness, it is because of our faith. Even the example of Abraham in the binding of Isaac, if you really consider it, that fact that G-d declared him righteous is not from the act of offering Isaac, since he didn’t actually complete the task, but the willingness to offer Isaac on the basis of G-d’s command.

Rick this post by G entirely embodies my last post becuase it comes down to the commitment of the believer. Abraham committed to the intention of sacrificing his son and we read of the commitment in these verses;

Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Why didn't God simply stop abraham when they were on the way to perform the sacrifice. Why wasn't abrahams commitment understood as complete by God before he raised his hand with the knife?
Commitment is the continuing action within the believer. Free will could at any point along the way have come into play as Abraham contemplated the sacrifice of his Son to God. It was not until the intention of Abraham to drive the knife into his son that God was satisfied that his commitment was genuine. God didn't make up Abrahams mind for him. Abrahams continuous commitment to do whatever God commanded him was only evidenced by his continuance over time to keep performing in accordance with the devine will. Had Abraham chosen at some point along the way to not obey the will of God then he would have of his own free will chosen to disobey Gods command and he would not have been given the promises that were givien.

Our relationship with our heavenly Father is and always will be a two way street. Each of us are independant entities with our own wills just as God designed them and it appears to my understanding that God did not make robots, he created man for his pleasure and in my mind that pleasure is to experience true unadulterated love that is freely given. Freely given means you do it of your own free will not because he had to force you to do it.

I love God not because I have to.
I love God because of all of the properties he as shown us about himself
I love God because he alone embodies all the most precious things I desire.
I love God because he alone can help me attain the state of being that I desire but am unable to gain on my own.
I love God because he will give me a helper that will allow me to better understand and perform according to Gods will so that I can become closer to him.

[jlay]

Faith and obedience should be united. It is an absolute load of bologne to say that promoting salvation by faith alone is somehow not promoting the transformed life.

If you think you are being obedient enough, fine. If you want to be judged by that measure, fine. If you judge other by that measure, then it is the measure that will you will be judged with. But I don't for one moment believe that Wolf or any other legalist is doing anything but setting some arbitrary bar of righteousness where they see themselves as somewhere above the line, and others below. If you want to conflate obey, to following some ammended version of the OT, then fine. I can only pray that our Lord and Savior will open your eyes to the grace that is offered to you, with only the call to obey His command to Believe.
It is either all accomplished in Christ and available through the dispenstaton of grace, preached by Paul, or it is contingent on your performance. I have no doubt that the NT admonishes beleivers to walk worthy of their calling. They should because they can, and it is the appropiate response to those who have been saved.

[Gman]

Faith and obedience should be united. It is an absolute load of bologne to say that promoting salvation by faith alone is somehow not promoting the transformed life.

Yes.. I think we understand that how you define "faith" is that someone is justified even just for merely laying on a couch in front of a TV. You see that is just wrong on many levels... If they have faith, then that faith will be followed by an action (in obedience to G-d), even if the believer doesn't understand exactly "why" they are doing it.

[KBCid]

It is either all accomplished in Christ and available through the dispenstaton of grace, preached by Paul, or it is contingent on your performance. I have no doubt that the NT admonishes beleivers to walk worthy of their calling. They should because they can, and it is the appropiate response to those who have been saved.

The question being begged here is why would a believer be admonished to walk in any specific way if it doesn't matter. I tell my children to look both ways before crossing a street.... for their own good... They perform this action not simply because I said so... they know I love them and give wise direction for their benefit... they obey because they believe that what I am saying is good to follow for its future benefit. If they were to stop performing this action by their own free will then their commitment to the belief will have changed.

When one of my children have disobeyed a command that I gave them for thier own good it always comes down to this one immutable fact;

"what they desired by their own free will conflicted with my commandment and they chose to follow their own will rather than mine".

In the same way we can perform actions according to our will or we can perform according to devine will. Devine will has stated that "you should love your neighbor as you do yourself" and if you continuously perform actions that show that you don't live by this understadning by hating others or avoiding helping those who need help then you are showing everyone incuding God that you want to live by your will and not his.
It is by this outward observable evidence that we can define the fruit. From a bad tree the fruit is bad, from a good tree the fruit is good. If you say you love God with all your heart and still hate others then you are a liar because when you say you believe in the truth of something and still act in opposition to that truth then it can be properly understood that your first assertion is not true.
If you are standing on a ledge that is thousands of feet above the ground and God says "don't step forward or you will surely die" and you step forward anyway then you don't believe with commitment in the truth that he has given you. How many times should God save you from certain death because you chose to take the step by your own choice when you know that he has told you not to? Will he save you perpetually and allow you to always continue to do what you want independant of his command not to?

To my understanding If God says;
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Then he is telling us that these are the two main principles for how we are to exist socially with him and his other creations. If we choose of our own free will to disobey these principles continuously without commiting to living them then we will by our own choice defy Gods will for how we should exist.
God can certainly work with us to change the things we do with the idea that we would learn and change but once we commit to stop learning and change and defiantly do things that we know are wrong then what more can God offer us? If we can't learn to change during our temporary existence then how would we learn in an eternal existence? Freely given love means it comes from the heart not from God forcing our heart to love him in opposition to what we prefer to do on our own.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It is spelled out right there, he that "does the will of my Father".
It doesn't say "he who simply believes the will of my father"

Doing implies action, doing is the outward evidence of the inward will. How many of us would stand in fire if we believe that it will hurt us? I believe fire will hut me so my outward evidence for my belief is that I won't stand in it and if I do see someone standing in fire then I can properly assert that they don't believe that fire can hurt them. Actions are the observable evidence for the inward belief and commitment.

If you show outward hate against other races then I can be absolutely sure that you are not commited to the belief that "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". The question then becomes can you truly love God and remain a racist since the command to to love others comes from him. Will God give the free gift of eternal life to a commited racist?

[RickD]

Faith and obedience should be united. It is an absolute load of bologne to say that promoting salvation by faith alone is somehow not promoting the transformed life.

Yes.. I think we understand that how you define "faith" is that someone is justified even just for merely laying on a couch in front of a TV. You see that is just wrong on many levels... If they have faith, then that faith will be followed by an action (in obedience to G-d), even if the believer doesn't understand exactly "why" they are doing it.

Now Gman, this kind of post doesn't help bring us closer. How you got jlay as advocating that one who is justified in Christ has the right to sit his butt on a couch and watch TV, is beyond me. You pulled the same garbage with me when I said I don't have to follow the Jewish sabbath. You made it out like I was saying I didn't want to take a day off of work.

KBC, I know Gman might not see it, but we're really not as far apart on this as it seems. Most of my disagreements come from the way Gman is wording some of his beliefs. I bet if we each really understood what the other was saying, we'd agree more than disagree.

[RickD]

The Jewish sabbath law was a specific law given to the Israelites. God wanted them to follow that law in a very specific way. If one didn't follow it the way it was supposed to be followed, then the penalty was death. Taking the day off of work is not following the sabbath. Here is the basics on how the Israelites were to obey/follow the sabbath:
http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm
If a gentile believer feels like he wants to obey the sabbath law, the least he can do is follow it by the basics in the link I posted. We really have to ask ourselves if Jesus really died so we should feel like we need to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Is observing the sabbath specifically how Jews were commanded to observe it, really how God wants us to show our love for Him?

[jlay]

G and K,
Pathetic. Not even worth addressing.

[Wolfgang]

If the Saturday Sabbath was meant only for the Jews, then why o why in the world was Isaiah divinely ordered to reveal in Isaiah 66:23 and Isaiah 56:6,7 that EVERYONE, not just the Jews, in the distant future will some day rest and worship the Lord on Saturdays? That is a fair question that demands to be answered, not ignored.

Recently someone attempted to use Colossians 2:16 and Acts 15 on me as support for the idea that certain Mosaic laws have been abolished. Within about a week, though, I will try to explain why many Christians believe those verses cannot reasonably be used to support that idea.

[RickD]

Wolfgang, since you're tossing bible verses against the wall, to see if they stick, I have a verse for you to mull over. What do you think Romans 6:14 is saying?

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

[KBCid]

G and K, Pathetic. Not even worth addressing.

thankyou for your time then. I will also respond in kind to your further posts.

[Wolfgang]

Yes, that does initially appear to be a puzzling verse for someone like me. In the first place, in Romans 6:14, the Greek word for "under" in other verses can and has actually been translated as "of" far more often than "under." That's not a huge difference, but it sheds a slightly less harsh separation of the law from Christians. To reconcile Romans 6:14 with reasonable obedience to the law, you have to look at Galatians 5:18 which says: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." In this latter verse there is a massive contradiction (if you think both the penalty and obedience parts of the law have been annulled) because the only way you, generally, can get the Holy Spirit is to obey the law according to Acts 2:38 and Acts 5:32. Since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, and to conform to the fact that over 100 pro-law verses in the New Testament exist, the only possible interpretation of Romans 6:14 is that obedient Christians are no longer under the penalty part of the law, the obedience part still intact, though. Then the massive contradiction in Galatians 5:18 disappears, as it should, of course. Romans 8:2 explains more clearly that Christians specifically are no longer under the law of sin and death (no longer under the penalty of the law, the penalty being death). Also, sometimes the apostles spoke in an extremely abbreviated, concise way, not always "spelling out" what they mean. "Not under or not of the law" can be a short way of saying not under the penalty of the law.