Open Science Discussin about GOD's Existence

[PaulSacramento]

For example - If someone has done a sin and he's not punished and in fact he's saved by Jesus than its human nature that he will do the sin again and say I will start believing in God from now. So keeps on hurting people and going to church every sunday, I feel this is what happens when people aren't shown the fear of their acts - Do you agree?

I don't think you have a good understanding of this, sorry.
The moment a sinner believes and accepts Christ, he must redeem himself to be saved ( part of the process of accepting Christ as Lord and saviour is redemption and admitting we are in need of a saviour).
Redemption means the full acceptance and understanding of ALL OUR sins.
Think about it this way:
You accept Christ and you become fully aware and feel ALL the PAIN you have ever caused ANYONE in your life, ALL OF IT !
Imagine that.
No one is getting off "scott free", very far from that.
No one knows better the consequences of their sin than a Christian and to continue in sin is a sign of NOT accepting Jesus and not being redeemed.
Every Christian knows their is judgment for what they have done.
Christianity goes against this "human nature" that you speak of and are describing.
Christianity is understanding that we NEED a saviour because we sin and can't stop it without the help of that saviour and that saviour is Christ and it is the understanding that we NEED redemption and that redemption comes from Christ, it is also the understanding of what that redemption means and all that goes with it.

[1over137]

True hana. I have seen God do many things in my life and I always get to see the reason later but at the same time there are equal situations where God didn't do any thing for me and it felt like he didn't existed or else may be I haven't seen the reason for his acts yet. This is what rises the question inside me always - Is he there or not? Does he control everything and each tiny particle or else he only cares for the legendary things?

Doesn't Christianity teach about past lifes? Every culture has a part about past deeds done in our present or future life and how they impact the current time.

Hi Nithash.

You say, God did many times things in your life and many times he did not do anything. So, do you really believe that those times he did something that it was really him that did it? Well, question is why he did not do things you may have wanted him to do. Sometimes we ask for wrong things, like inconsistent with God' nature or Bible teaching. But what about when we ask for things that are not wrong? Well, I am not God to tell you that. But my experience is that it sometimes may take 10 years to see why. It happened to me that I saw purpose within a week. It happened to me that I saw purpose within one month. But it also happened to me to see purpose after 15 years and I am mot exagerating at all. And I am sure for some things we will wait until Jesus' second coming.

I read somewhere that in the church it is best when there are old as well as young members. Young memebers because they have more zeal, maybe more power to do changes. Old members because they have more experience, more wisdom, more times have seen God in action and therefore have less doubts. I guess it could be helpful to have some also older Christian friends (I tell ya, they are great, even 70 years old!).

Whether God controls every tiny particle? I haven't studied Bible on this, but as a physicist I wonder that if that was the case why allmighty God would create the world such way that he needed to control every tiny particle? What the four physical forces and all physical laws are then for? The strong force takes care that nucleus holds together, electric force holds electrons, thanks to quantum mechanics atoms are stable and electrons do not collapse into nucleaus. No gravity, no solar system, no stable orbit of our Earth and no Earth at all.

Finally, I do not think Bible teaches reincarnation. (Correct me gyus if I am wrong, but I do not think so.)

[PaulSacramento]

Resurrection is NOT reincarnation.
There is only ONE resurrection and the same spirit gets the same body, only a "new and improved" version.

[1over137]

BryanH,

So an almighty, all-'everything' being creates people and then puts them to test to "REFINE" us and she who is more deserving for the afterlife. What's the point of that? What's the point for an eternal, transcendent, and omniscient being to create clearly inferior beings and then put them to test? God controls both good and evil, but as you present it here, he wants US to choose only good in order for "have a place reserved in the garden of heaven".

He created people with free will. A test? If one truly believes Christ is his Savior he will have afterlife. Inferior beings? What would you like to have more? Us choosing good? Well, we are given the helper, the Spirit, to grow in being and doing more good.

If you behave yourself, I will give you divine candy. Seems like behavior conditioning to me, especially related to creating obedience to authority.

Those who believe in Christ, are thankful to him, admire him and long to do what pleases God/Christ. Those who seek find and to those who knock it will be opened.

Basically God doesn't care about you as an individual that has preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations, but he wants you to follow a certain path in life if you want of course to be part of his great plan.

As long as your preferences/needs/desires/dreams/aspirations coincide with the given frame you are alright. If not, well, the eternal flames of hell will be your "punishment". And by the way let's not forget that Satan is at his origin a fallen angel. Why hasn't God given him the opportunity for redemption? Guess he wasn't good enough for the great plan God has.

Given frame? Why God would keep people in heaven who do not want him? Satan? Well, evil do not belongs to heaven.

[bippy123]

Very well put 1over137
God loves us so much that he will never force us to be with him against our will.
With free will there is love, without free will there is no love.
Bryant, what is so difficult to understand about the concept of free will and love?

[BryanH]

Afterall, you can't claim truth and then claim that contradictory views are also just another path to truth.

But you can claim that both you and your "opponent" do not have the ultimate answer and work together towards maybe obtaining that.

With all the love that goes round and round I see that when it comes to actually cooperating with another religion, well, love turns into hate, violence and sometimes murder.

God loves us so much that he will never force us to be with him against our will.
With free will there is love, without free will there is no love.
Bryant, what is so difficult to understand about the concept of free will and love?

Bippy I don't know what love and free will you are talking about to be honest.

God tells you what to do. He doesn't ask your opinion on that. You MUST do that or else you can add Satan on "Soulbook" as your new buddy permanently.

If you do good you get rewarded, if you do bad you get punished.

That is called positive reinforcement behavior conditioning. There are entire compendiums written on this subject. The information is there. Feel free to read some in your spare time.

Given frame? Why God would keep people in heaven who do not want him? Satan? Well, evil do not belongs to heaven.

***Why would God keep people in Heaven who do no want him?

Let's see. When I said some things earlier, I didn't say them because I just like saying things.

***Well, mate, I have a question for you: If you have 2 kids, one loves you, one doesn't, do you send one of them to hell? Just asking... God loves us all right... but he just sends some of us to hell (permanently)... funny way of showing love, wouldn't you say? But anyways, please answer the question.

***As you formulated the question, it leads to a discussion about a God who promotes discrimination. The fact that I don't want believe in God, doesn't mean that I can't be a good person and ascend to heaven from my point of view. God seems to have different point of view on that. I need to believe. It seems that believing is more important than actually being a good person.

***God could create 2 separate Heavens or even 3 or 5 or 10: one for believers, one for non believers. But what do you know? Heaven seems to be quite an exclusive club. And your question has the most surprising formulation I've heard in a while: why would an almighty being care that much if I believe or not? I mean, it's not like that's going to change the way the universe spins, right? On the other side if God has any gain from believers, well, there goes the love.

***Satan doesn't belong in Heaven.

Actually he does. His very origins are in that place... The real question is: why does God send people to Satan in the first place? What's the catch? Good people's souls get to heaven and bad people's souls get to Lucifer. That makes no sense... Basically a loving God sends you away for an eternity of torment. Excuse me but I find it hard to believe that the God which is described by the bible as the source of all what it is good is capable of such injustice.

My response was more on our freedom to choose. God installed a moral compass within us so we can determine right from wrong. Unlike say a dog who just obeys whatever his master commands, or a cat which just goes about its day as it pleases. God cannot install "moral good" in us from the get go, because such overrides our freedom to choose. In fact, if God made us "good" so that we can commit no wrong acts, then we are not being good since we're determined to be such a way and "we" have no say in the matter. Good actions can only exist if we are free to choose good over bad, right from wrong. Indeed, the greatest good many desire in life -- love -- can only exist if one has the freedom to choose to respond out of love.

Your statement is perfectly logical, but you do have one question to answer: if God is the source of all and he is pure good, moral, etc etc, where did EVIL come from? Out of thin air? Out of free will? Out of what?

If evil came out of free will and God sends you to hell for choosing to be bad that means there is no free will in the first place.

[bippy123]

Bryant it seems to me like ur fighting God every step of the way, and you still don't get that getting to heaven isnt about how much good works we do because nothing we can do for ourselves can get us into heaven. It is a free gift from God when Jesus died on that cross for our sins.

When you said that you don't want belief in God, that is exactly what you meant, you don't want belief in God. It's not that there isn't any good evidence for God. Your heart is so hardened that it wouldn't dent your heart no matter how good the evidence is.

And contrary to what you say, God doesn't send anyone to hell. They send themselves. Hell is the spiritual state that is lacking Gods presence.

And there you go again believing that you know what is good and what is evil. How could you logically believe that you could know what is good and what is evil in your worldview? The answer is you can't?
And this is exactly what happens when a finite being attempts to be his own God and tries to determine what is good and what is evil. In a worldview without God , murder can be called good by one person and bad by another.

Sorry to tell you Bryant, but the deceiver doesn't have to lift a finger to turn you against God, your vanity and arrogance is doing all of it for him.

I will pray for you that one day you will come back into the light, away from the complete chaos your currently in.

[BryanH]

And contrary to what you say, God doesn't send anyone to hell. They send themselves. Hell is the spiritual state that is lacking Gods presence.

I will just quote this because the rest of your answer is mainly about personal beliefs and I don't want to have a discussion about my beliefs and your beliefs.

***Nobody can send himself/herself to hell. After you die, you get JUDGED and get sent to hell. Hell is not the spiritual state that is lacking God's presence or at least that is not what the bible tells us. The very nature of God implies that God's presence is everywhere because of his omnipotence. Anyways, hell is a form of supreme spiritual punishment. If you think otherwise, that means you have your own personal interpretation and so do I. Actually, it's like the 10 commandments. Don't respect them and you get punished sooner or later. Christianity is rooted in this form of punishing people that do not follow a certain path.

As your said ealier: no free will, no love. If God punishes you when you make a certain choice that means he doesn't want you to make that choice. You do understand that right? So where is your free will?

[bippy123]

And contrary to what you say, God doesn't send anyone to hell. They send themselves. Hell is the spiritual state that is lacking Gods presence.

I will just quote this because the rest of your answer is mainly about personal beliefs and I don't want to have a discussion about my beliefs and your beliefs.

***Nobody can send himself/herself to hell. After you die, you get JUDGED and get sent to hell. Hell is not the spiritual state that is lacking God's presence or at least that is not what the bible tells us. The very nature of God implies that God's presence is everywhere because of his omnipotence. Anyways, hell is a form of supreme spiritual punishment. If you think otherwise, that means you have your own personal interpretation and so do I. Actually, it's like the 10 commandments. Don't respect them and you get punished sooner or later. Christianity is rooted in this form of punishing people that do not follow a certain path.

As your said ealier: no free will, no love. If God punishes you when you make a certain choice that means he doesn't want you to make that choice. You do understand that right? So where is your free will?

The problem is that I don't have my personal interpretation Bryant and this is only a part of what your not getting .
Maybe you believe in private interpretation but I don't, and it's obvious that you haven't looked through most of my posts on that subject.

Have you actually studied what the earliest Christians were taught by the apostles? My guess is no you haven't.
God is love itself, God is justice itself, God is mercy itself. He is the objective moral law giver, and without him it becomes one persons definition of good and one persons definition of wrong.
Do you believe good and evil are arbitrary or objective?
Do you believe as a human being that your are the standard of love, justice and mercy?
My guess is deep down inside you know that it isn't possible for us as human beings to believe that we are this.

We have the free will choice to choose what is objectively good or what is objectively bad. I don't get why you believe that takes away your free will. Free to choose evil or free to choose good. It can't be that hard to understand can it?
And just because there are consequences to free will choices , they don't take away from them being free will choices.

I choose to trust and love God who is love itself, who is justice itself, who is mercy itself.
You are choosing chaos itself, injustice itself and lack of mercy itself.
Wasn't there a certain being that also made the choice to separate himself from God?

Think long and hard Bryan and ask yourself why do you spend so much time fighting agains love itself,mercy itself and all that is good itself? Remember you have the right to choose

[BryanH]

Have you actually studied what the earliest Christians were taught by the apostles? My guess is no you haven't.
God is love itself, God is justice itself, God is mercy itself. He is the objective moral law giver, and without him it becomes one persons definition of good and one persons definition of wrong.
Do you believe good and evil are arbitrary or objective?
Do you believe as a human being that your are the standard of love, justice and mercy?
My guess is deep down inside you know that it isn't possible for us as human beings to believe that we are this.

We have the free will choice to choose what is objectively good or what is objectively bad. I don't get why you believe that takes away your free will. Free to choose evil or free to choose good. It can't be that hard to understand can it?
And just because there are consequences to free will choices , they don't take away from them being free will choices.

I am not raising a problem of belief, but one of logic. And by the way: your answer has no connection with my previous post. You keep talking on and on about the same thing without taking in consideration any of my statements. I know that you are a Christian and this is a Christian forum. I am aware of your system of values and beliefs. You are talking about your own beliefs and I was asking a question about something else. You haven't answered that.

And the same question I addressed to 1lover137, I am addressing to you as well: where does evil come from? God is the creator of all things, universes, worlds, etc etc. God as you say is pure good, objective moral law giver etc etc.

So how come we have evil in the world if God is only good? Explain me that. God is the origin point of all that exists, including evil. Evil did not exists before God created anything. Again: where did evil come from?

[quote=""bippy123"]Wasn't there a certain being that also made the choice to separate himself from God?[/quote]

Lucifer didn't want to separate from God. He wanted to be the equal of God and and God banished him. Anyways, the story with Lucifer is illogical at its core because in terms of logic there can be only one God. So it doesn't matter if Lucifer wanted to be God or not.

This is the same with the logical paradox about God: "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift off the ground?"
No matter what answer you give, you will have a limited God. The same with Lucifer. It's the same paradox, but only from a different perspective: "Can God create another God?"

[1over137]

***Why would God keep people in Heaven who do no want him?

Let's see. When I said some things earlier, I didn't say them because I just like saying things.

***Well, mate, I have a question for you: If you have 2 kids, one loves you, one doesn't, do you send one of them to hell? Just asking... God loves us all right... but he just sends some of us to hell (permanently)... funny way of showing love, wouldn't you say? But anyways, please answer the question.

***As you formulated the question, it leads to a discussion about a God who promotes discrimination. The fact that I don't want believe in God, doesn't mean that I can't be a good person and ascend to heaven from my point of view. God seems to have different point of view on that. I need to believe. It seems that believing is more important than actually being a good person.

***God could create 2 separate Heavens or even 3 or 5 or 10: one for believers, one for non believers. But what do you know? Heaven seems to be quite an exclusive club. And your question has the most surprising formulation I've heard in a while: why would an almighty being care that much if I believe or not? I mean, it's not like that's going to change the way the universe spins, right? On the other side if God has any gain from believers, well, there goes the love.

***Satan doesn't belong in Heaven

Actually he does. His very origins are in that place... The real question is: why does God send people to Satan in the first place? What's the catch? Good people's souls get to heaven and bad people's souls get to Lucifer. That makes no sense... Basically a loving God sends you away for an eternity of torment. Excuse me but I find it hard to believe that the God which is described by the bible as the source of all what it is good is capable of such injustice.

First, something from the Bible:

• The intent of our heart is "only evil continuously". Gen. 6:5
• Our "righteous" deeds are filthy garments. Isa. 64.6
• Nobody is good. Luke 18:19
• We cannot see the Kingdom of God . John 3:3
• We are not righteous. Rom. 3:10
• We do not understand; we do not seek God. Rom. 3:11
• We have turned aside; we are useless. Rom. 3:12
• None of us does good. Rom. 3:12
• We do not fear God. Rom. 3:18
• We are hostile to God. Rom 8:7
• We are unable (not just unwilling) to submit to the law of God. Rom 8:7
• We cannot please God. Rom 8:8
• We were dead (not just gravely ill) in our sins. Eph 2:1
• We walked according to Satan. Eph 2:2
• We lived in the lusts of our flesh. Eph 2:3
• We were children of wrath. Eph 2:3

You said that it seems that believing is more important than being good. To me, it seems that noone is good. Believers are given The Helper/Holy Spirit that would lead them.

John 14:26:
"26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

You want me to answer the question about 2 kids. I would try to show the unbelieving kid the glory of God. If the kid keeps refusing God, well, the kid chose his destiny.

You say God could create more Heavens. Well, there will be only one Heaven, the place without sin. I would not call the other place to be Heaven too. Maybe God could leave unbelievers on Earth and they would not find themselves in Hell. But devil has his influence also on Earth. So, if God took all believers to Heaven and left the Earth, there would be quite a hell on the Earth.

[1over137]

And the same question I addressed to 1lover137, I am addressing to you as well: where does evil come from? God is the creator of all things, universes, worlds, etc etc. God as you say is pure good, objective moral law giver etc etc.

Bryan, I just have found time to delve more in the problem of evil. Please, be patient. You ask many questions at once.

[BryanH]

***I will be patient and waiting for your answer in regards to where evil comes from.

So, if God took all believers to Heaven and left the Earth, there would be quite a hell on the Earth.

I wouldn't go that far ) Just saying...

You say God could create more Heavens. Well, there will be only one Heaven, the place without sin. I would not call the other place to be Heaven too.

I don't get your point. Before you enter Heavens you are a sinner. Nothing changes after you enter Heaven. You are still the same person regardless if you believe in God or not. Even if you ask for forgiveness and are a believer, that doesn't change the fact that you have sinned in the past.

[1over137]

God will not remember our sins.

In Isaiah 43 it says:
25 “I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Isaiah 64:
8 Yet you, Lord, are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,
for we are all your people.

Jeremiah 31:
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Psalm 25:
Remember, Lord, your great mercy and love,
for they are from of old.
7 Do not remember the sins of my youth
and my rebellious ways;
according to your love remember me,
for you, Lord, are good.

Now some verses connected to entering the Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, andsome to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorantspeculations, knowing that they produce [h]quarrels. 24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Romans 8:
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery[g]leading to fear again, but you have received [h]a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for ouradoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Seems like before entering the Heaven we will be saints, cleansed.

P.S.: ... Working on the answer on the evil ...

[Icthus]

On the question of why evil exists if the Creator is good, I don't think there is a problem. Moral Law comes from God, and naturally where there is a moral law there is the possibility of going against it and doing evil. Evil isn't a "thing" in the way that good is; it's just what isn't good. God doesn't need to "create evil" any more than the existence of heat requires him to "create cold" or the existence of wetness requires him to "create dryness."