When in evolution did souls come in?

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
Think of it this way, it is quite possible (and that is only speculation on my part mind you) that the chosen Eve may very well have formerly been a physical blood relative, most likely an offspring of the former being that is now Adam. So here is this first human, Adam, suddenly awake and distinctly aware of his surroundings, can process information, reason, communicate, and so on, and yet utterly raw so-to-speak and totally dependent on God. So God makes it known to him (in his sleep) that Eve is not just special because she was chosen as his wife and companion, no she is much more than that, she is flesh from his flesh and bone from his bone (literally physically).

Byblos, if Eve is an off spring of Adam, then how do you explain Genesis 2:18:

18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.”

How could Adam be alone if he had children from which Eve came?

Adam was the first to receive a rational soul. When he became self-aware he would not have identified with Eve because her soul wasn't formed yet. Only after he was put to sleep, Eve was made self-aware, he was given knowledge of that and of the fact that she is no stranger, a blood relative, that he awoken and knew her.

And, Genesis 2:19-22:

19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [p]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the [q]sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [r]Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

There was not a helper suitable for him before Eve was created. That doesn't really make any sense if Adam already had children.

Of course it does, having received a rational soul, Adam is a new creature unlike any other, including himself. That's why he had to be made aware that Eve is a blood relative; he would not have had any knowledge or memory of that prior to receiving a rational soul.

Byblos wrote:
As you know I'm not entirely sold on TE

I can see why, after that explanation.

It's an interpretation like myriad others. And it perfectly aligns with scripture.

Ok Byblos, I see what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying for me.

[RickD]

Why would God need to do that Rick?
I mean, why not create Eve just as Adam?

I'm not sure what you're asking Paul. I didn't say God needed to do it that way. I'm just trying to see how Byblos understands the text here as an allegory.

When God created all other mammals, he created them male and female so they can procreate, he created them at the same time we assume.
Why the difference with Adam?
Why not create eve like Adam, why use a part of Adam?
That it was written that way makes me think that there is a message here and it isn't about creation but about how man and woman are One.
Written to show that woman is from Man and Man gives of himself for woman.

Ok. So God created Eve from Adam's rib, and this shows us that woman comes from man. How are you arguing against an non-allegorical interpretation here? It sounds like you're arguing for an interpretation of Eve being literally formed from a part of Adam.

It was allegory because, obviously God didn't have to create Eve that way, the story is used to instill the ONENESS that must exist between man and woman.
Why a rib? Because the ribs job is to protect the heart ( and lungs of course) and the woman would "protect" his heart from loneliness.
God could have chosen ANY part, agreed? there must have been some significance for choosing the rib.
The whole tale seems to be about man and woman, made for each other, to complement each other, to be ONE when together, to be OF each other and FOR each other.

I see what you're saying as well, Paul. While I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation, in and of itself, this interpretation really isn't "unscriptural". I don't think TE is the best interpretation, but I can understand a little better, how you and Byblos see this now.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Byblos, are you sure about that? I just saw something that may say otherwise. Have a look:http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/07/living/ga ... ?hpt=hp_c3
What is this world coming to?

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
According to Catholic belief (many of whom are theistic evolutionists), there are 3 types of souls: 1) a non-sentient soul such as that of plants, bacteria, etc. 2) a sentient non-rational soul such as that of animals, and 3) a sentient rational soul such as that of humans and which is said to be in the image of God.

Byblos, are you sure about that? I just saw something that may say otherwise. Have a look:http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/07/living/ga ... ?hpt=hp_c3
What is this world coming to?

I know you found it somehow humorous but in what way does that contradict what I stated? Animals do have a non-rational soul and all souls go back to the creator upon death. The practice of animal blessing dates back to St. Francis of Assissi (mid 13th century) who had an affinity for all creatures. He once wrote “All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures.” Note that Francis hailed from a very wealthy family but shunned his wealth to live the life of poverty and obedience to the Gospel. At the blessings of animals and pets the following prayer is often sited:

“Blessed are you, Lord God, maker of all living creatures. You called forth fish in the sea, birds in the air and animals on the land. You inspired St. Francis to call all of them his brothers and sisters. We ask you to bless this pet. By the power of your love, enable it to live according to your plan. May we always praise you for all your beauty in creation. Blessed are you, Lord our God, in all your creatures! Amen.”

St. Francis was instrumental in popularizing animals as pets, thereby giving us lifetime companions. So thanks Rick for the opportunity to spread the word.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
I know you found it somehow humorous but in what way does that contradict what I stated?

It doesn't. It was solely for the amusement of the forum, and its constituents.
It was kinda a joke on if animals don't have rational souls like you said, then why are they being blessed. It was just my way of throwing a little humor into the mix. Sometimes I can be a bit too serious.

[PaulSacramento]

I see what you're saying as well, Paul. While I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation, in and of itself, this interpretation really isn't "unscriptural". I don't think TE is the best interpretation, but I can understand a little better, how you and Byblos see this now.

It's just a view, I am not saying it is right or the only one of course.
If we look at the literary genre of Genesis, for that time period and who wrote it and who it was direct for, what we see is the typical "myth" language of the ANE which means that while there is FACT and TRUTH there, it is not passed on as scientific fact and literal and concrete truth.
That doesn't change the importance and significance of Genesis at all.
Augustine and others didn't view Genesis as literal and concrete, they viewed it as literal in the sense of how it applies to its genre.
What we have in Genesis 2 is the account of TWO humans, the first two humans with a soul, one human begotten of another, made of the very fabric of existence and of each other.
Those two humans are given paradise with but one simple rule, the only rule they break ( go out of their way to break almost) and for that, for thier disobience they get what they wanted: To be Like God and all that comes with it - the power to know all, the power to know good and evil and the responsibility that comes with that, with no help from anyone.
To me the lesson is played out everyday with everyone: We say to God, They will be done or God says to Us, Thy will be done.
To me, that is the lesson of Genesis 2.

[eldeeboy]

when God created man "in HIS image" (God's image being a soul) it was revealed to me that the breath of life blown into adam was that of a soul. other humanoids at that time were just as the other animals of the earth. makes sense to me.