Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?

[Gman]

I'm just teasing G. Just trying to get you riled up.

I know.. You are just trying to get under my skin...

[RickD]

Just for you Gman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIA ... ata_player

[Gman]

Just for you Gman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIA ... ata_player

Thanks I like it.. A lot.

[Gman]

Yes, I just wish we could sit down over a glass or two to discuss the matter.

Words used often miscommunicate or cause reaction. Sometimes one can accentuated the opposite to try bring balance where they see imbalance, and I think this often happens in discussions like these.

Being able to discuss in person, can more often than not settle a dispute. Since clarifications can always be made, and we can even correct ourselves as we go. Whereas with posts like this, it's like you've got one shot to say something, and not only do you have to say it correctly, you have to ensure you say it in a way that will be read correctly also. Very tricky to do.

In any case, read my last post. You'll find some "faith" and "action" in there.

You know K.. There is always skype.

[neo-x]

Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.. Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work. Also we should keep in mind that both physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart will be necessary for anyone entering the Sanctuary during the millennial reign of Yeshua as recorded in Ezekiel 44:9. So it's not exactly done away with yet.

Just to be clear you are saying that these apply to Jews only or both Jews or gentiles?

[KBCid]

I don't know if I would exactly say that faith it dependent on anything. Rather it seems a description of what faith is alone (what it actually means by itself). As an example if we say that we have faith, but lack the willingness to change course into G-d's direction of righteousness, that would be a dead faith.

G, I comprehend what your saying. True faith is belief and action in one tidy statement. The example would be that if you have faith that you are standing on a cliff and that taking a step forward would result in you falling to your death then you would not take the step because of your faith, and this is the most correct understanding from our english conceptual understanding.
The difference from the biblical written statements is that they seem to treat this as two separate points when they discuss the subject which is why it is written that faith without works is dead. Thus, the understanding conveyed at the time it was written and coming from the Holy Spirit was that it was best to convey the understanding as two independant points. We know that abstract concepts have evolved over time and our ability to give greater meaning to a word has also evolved so we must consider this as we define a proper understanding for our positions.

In a bottom line manner we must be able to define in a biblical perspective whether belief as (a single concept) without action as (a single concept) on the part of the believer is sufficient to receive the free gift of salvation.

As I have worded this before in an extreme conceptual example could someone who is a murderer say that they have come to Christ by belief and faith and still continue to murder and still receive the free gift of salvation. This is the logical conclusion to an argument that faith (as the biblical concept is given in a stand alone manner) alone is sufficient to receive salvation. So far my perception of your position is not inline with this manner of understanding.
For those who are participating in this discussion it would be very helpfull for me if you can define faith and works as two independant points like the scriptures appear to convey. This way we are not talking past each other.

So to clarify my earlier post on the two positions, faith as applied in the the positions below is considered independant of works / actions which is directly inline with the scripture that defined faith without works being dead and works without faith being dead.

1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ 'AND' a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.

[KBCid]

seriously... now I am asked to work with someones post whom I can't directly interact with?

No, I didn't asked you to respond or work with anything.

The idea for me here is that I am trying to understand 'your' position because you are the one interacting with me in this discussion. By giving a foundation from someone else I can't clearly define how you reached your understanding nor can I discuss specific points on someone elses points with you as you may not be able to delve deeper into the rationale that they used.
So I am not intending to offend you because it is entirely you that I am wishing to connect with and walk a mile in your shoes so to speak. So please don't take offence.

[KBCid]

Ok... I will briefly respond to some of these points...
Again... The ultimate commandment is to love... That is fine. We all want the plot.. However then next question is HOW WE LOVE. That is what we mean by following G-d's commandments. Otherwise we will define how to love under our own understanding and make up our OWN rules.. Notice how Paul ALWAYS goes back to G-d's commandments for the definition of love and sin..
Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
That is the point here. Seeing the LOVE behind G-d's commandments and wanting to do it in FAITH...

G, this post exemplifies my current understanding because it contains faith and works as a single understanding of love. By stating that it is important "how we love" you are clearly pointing to the action side as being cojoined with faith in an expression of love itself and from my understanding this is exactly inline with our contemporary understanding of what it means to truely love.
If we love our wife we don't cheat on her physically nor do we mentally look on other women with desire right?
If we love God we don't make any handmade images to worship him through because he has stated his position on this type of action.
If we love our neighbor then we don't murder them because God has stated the proper position on this.
this is faith and works being cojoined in the single meaning of love.

True love as intended to be applied by the two greatest commandments according to my understanding is faith and works functioning as one even though the scriptures appear to treat them as separate points. The fruit of the spirit is any expression exhibited in actions that originates from belief and faith. So if we love God then we are not only willing to accept his direction through instruction but also it is the intention to apply it as we continue to exist during our life.

[KBCid]

KBC wrote:
In my understanding on this point that we are supposed to have the intent to turn from sinning when we accept Christ otherwise what would be the purpose of the indwelling HS? [/quote]

KBC,Yes, when we accept Christ, we are saved. Period.

Ok then there is nothing a believer can do once we accept Christ to lose the free gift of salvation?

Then the process of sanctification begins. As God sanctifies a believer, the believer will naturally(in the spirit) turn from sin. But, the sinful nature is still there, fighting with the new creature(spiritual nature). See Galatians 5:17:For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

We are absolutely not required to 'perform' in any specific manner past that point. God will essentially mold our desires and actions for us independant of our own free will.

KBC wrote:
It is clearly stated that the HS will be our indwelling teacher. What exactly is the HS teaching? If there is nothing we can do of our own will to better ourselves then there is no need for a teacher right? A teacher is of no use unless the teaching can be applied by the recipient. So if all we have to do to be saved is believe then we would not even need the HS because the HS isn't given until 'after' we already believe in and accept Christ so obviously the HS isn't given to help us reach a state of belief.

Of course the HS is our teacher. He also sanctifies a believer. Salvation is a one time deal that happens upon one's belief in Christ. But, there's more to a believer's walk with God. The HS doesn't stop working in a believer after the moment of salvation. But saying the HS doesn't play a part in coming to a belief in Christ, isn't accurate. If a believer presents the gospel of Jesus Christ by the power of the HS, to an unbeliever, and the unbeliever is convicted, and believes on Christ for his salvation, then of course the HS plays a part in one coming to a saving faith in Christ.

Point taken.

KBC wrote:
If we check Ephesians we can see instructions being given to Christians from an apostle who has the indwelling HS and what is the nature of this instruction?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called
We are to walk in a worthy manner right? the only way we can do this is by our actions and what would happen if we freely choose to not walk worthy?

Our actions as a believer show that God is working in us. If a believer freely chooses to do something other than what the HS is leading us to do, then God will discipline us. But, God disciplines us because we are His children. He doesn't kick us out of His family because we sin.

I definitely can understand discipline but...
Discipline is an action taken to cause a change in behavior within the one receiving it. So what happens if the recipient persistently refuses to alter their behavior? Do you feel that God will change your persistant refusal into acceptance thus overriding your free will?

KBC wrote:
So far I have yet to be able to actually define what the bottom line proposition is being asserted here since each poster has varying ways of expressing what they mean.So I would like to see If I can get any of the people here who have been opposing my position to agree completely with one of the two following statements;
1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ along with a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.[/quote]

KBC, let's take #1 first: I believe one is saved at the moment one places his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a free gift to all who believe. See John 3:14-16: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. When one believes in Christ, one is now part of God's family. Salvation is assured. The "process" for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. Notice the text doesn't say, "whoever believes in Him(and stops sinning)..."

Ok so your understanding and belief is the first choice then.

Now #2: I would agree that a believer grows as a believer, by "participation". By praying, reading the bible, etc. Since salvation happens at the moment one places his faith in Christ, then "participation" as you say, happens after salvation, and during sanctification.
I think I'm seeing that you think salvation is a lifelong process. Whereas I'm saying salvation is a one time deal, and sanctification is a lifelong process.
I hope that clears up what I believe, if I explained it properly.

Rick if your choice is the first statement then you cannot also choose the second as well. By choosiing the first you are saying essentially that no action on the part of the believer can ever change the fact that they are saved. Thus no matter whether we 'learn' anything or actively participate it has no consequence past the point of initial belief. From your post I am comprehending that in such a case as the believer is persistent in no learning or participating then God will simply bypass our free will and make us conform to his will.

My perception of salvation is that it is an instant occurance. My perception of sanctification is that it is a lifelong process. However, my perception of whether salvation can be lost once gained is that it is possible to fall away. Essentially, by your free will you can take yourself out by not learning and accepting the discipline being given. I also understand that God will not override our free will because free will was also a freely given aspect of our being, it is Gods desire that our gifts to him come from our own free will to give it.
The love I have for my wife is a freely given part of me to her and it would lose its meaning if she were the one controlling my love for her. Consider the concept of a whitch doctor giving you a love potion to give a girl that will make her love you...
Would you be satisfied with that form of love? or would love lose its meaning in such a context? In my understanding we are given free will and the chance to have close relationships with others to discern this important aspect of what it means to give and receive unconditional love with another being so that we can better understand and appreciate what is expected of us when we declare our love to God.
So for me I would understand our relationship with God to work like this... We initially learn about him and his ways from the bible and then if we have a desire to exist in a relationship with him then we declare our love by following the initial demand to accept Christ and his sacrifice so that we may become closer to God at which point we move forward learning about him through the HS and with a willingness to listen and apply his teaching we grow closer to the point where we can by the power of Christ offer the sacrifice of ourselves for God to directly dwell within us.
For now this understanding seems to make the most sense. Is it right? I have not settled on my understanding being perfect so I wish to see other perspectives and compare various points and I hope that along the way God knowing my desire will make the truth available and let me know what is correct according to his intent and not simply my own vain imagination.
Either way it is God alone who knows my heart and since there is no way I can of my own power come closer to him I am entirely in his hands for where I end up. IT is entirely my intent that he show me the way and it is my will that I follow the instruction given when he determines to freely give it.

[Gman]

Yes, animal sacrifice is done away with but not sacrifice itself since Christ is doing that now for us.. Animal sacrifice however will be returning during the millennial reign of Yeshua (Christ) from Jerusalem Ezekiel 40:41, Ezekiel 44:11, but not in place of Christ's atoning work. Also we should keep in mind that both physical circumcision and circumcision of the heart will be necessary for anyone entering the Sanctuary during the millennial reign of Yeshua as recorded in Ezekiel 44:9. So it's not exactly done away with yet.

Just to be clear you are saying that these apply to Jews only or both Jews or gentiles?

Yes both ethnic Jews and gentiles in Christ...

[Gman]

1) The free gift of salvation is entirely dependant on faith in Christ and has no dependancy on our active participation in the process.
2) The free gift of salvation is dependant on both faith in Christ 'AND' a dependancy on our active participation in becoming righteous.

Ok, it sound's better.. But I would still rephrase it. I like 2..

2) The free gift of salvation 'IS' faith in Christ 'WHICH' is also participation of becoming righteous in Him.

And even that I wouldn't necessarily say is dependent on salvation, meaning a continual participation in G-d's law for salvation. However, one could argue for the storing up of crowns of righteousness.

And part of that participation of faith is also repenting.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

[Wolfgang]

Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.

I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.

[Gman]

G, this post exemplifies my current understanding because it contains faith and works as a single understanding of love. By stating that it is important "how we love" you are clearly pointing to the action side as being cojoined with faith in an expression of love itself and from my understanding this is exactly inline with our contemporary understanding of what it means to truely love.
If we love our wife we don't cheat on her physically nor do we mentally look on other women with desire right?
If we love God we don't make any handmade images to worship him through because he has stated his position on this type of action.
If we love our neighbor then we don't murder them because God has stated the proper position on this.
this is faith and works being cojoined in the single meaning of love.

Yes, but I wouldn't think we would magically just know how to love... I think that is where the Holy Spirit comes in to guide in instruction in His works of righteousness in Christ which can emanate from His word, the Bible. At least that is what the Bible says...

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

True love as intended to be applied by the two greatest commandments according to my understanding is faith and works functioning as one even though the scriptures appear to treat them as separate points.

Hmm, I don't know if I would necessarily say that the Bible teaches that faith and works are separate points, perhaps that is how we perceive that, but not really what it is saying. It does say only by "faith" but it doesn't really say what faith is.. Faith typically means a "trust" but trusting in something, which is Christ. Faith is also believing.. So it isn't a black or white issue.

The fruit of the spirit is any expression exhibited in actions that originates from belief and faith. So if we love God then we are not only willing to accept his direction through instruction but also it is the intention to apply it as we continue to exist during our life.

Sure I would buy that...

[Gman]

Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.

I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.

Sure but we don't continually obey Torah to justify ourselves either unto salvation... That is the point I'm making.

[RickD]

Matthew 7:23: "....... I NEVER EVER knew you: depart from Me, you who violate the torah!" --- exeGeses Companion Bible.

I hate to say it and don't want to say it, but that verse almost shouts that salvation is not just a little bit, but is extremely dependent on obedience. That is so simple to understand that you would need someone else to help you misunderstand that.

Wolfgang,

This verse you posted is from a part in Matthew that talks about False Prophets. See the context here:

Matthew 7:15-23
15 “Beware of the afalse prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are bravenous wolves.

16 “You will 1aknow them by their fruits. 2Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 “So aevery good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19 “aEvery tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 “So then, you will 1know them aby their fruits.

21 “aNot everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 “aMany will say to Me on bthat day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many 1miracles?’

23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; adepart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Wolfgang,
A false prophet is one who was never a believer to begin with. These false prophets don't do the will of God because they were never children of God. The term "False Prophet" should be pretty clear that since they are false, they cannot be true. Again, a true believer cannot lose his salvation.