Shroud of Turin

[bippy123]

What I find interesting is thatso many people want to believe in the most sensational and least scientific (and least likely) explanation for such things. Is there a built-in need in humans to believe in magic because our forefathers' lives were so hard, short and brutal that only a belief in magic made them bearable?

Jom that isn't the problem at all. If you want to see the true problem just visit atheist sites like ciscop and you will see people using joe nickells long debunked shroud forgery theories and you will see why I keep saying that the shroud of turin makes atheists abandon science and reason just so they won't look at the evidences of the shroud. The shroud in fact makes atheists out to be the believers in magic and non believers in science and logic.

I would suggest that if you want some good evidence to go back and look at the many well researched posts put out by many here, or maybe u would like to follow ciscops research headed by joe nickell who doesn't even have a 2 year degree in any scientific field.

[bippy123]

Dr Thomas De Wesselow,apparently leading expert on medieval art as a 1 hr video on why the Shroud isn't a medieval hoax


http://www.shroud-enigma.com/BSTS/bsts-uk-homepage.html

Swimmy yep and De Wesselow is getting a lot of heat now from His atheist brethren (hes an agnostic)because of his belief in the authenticity of the shroud. I believe he does this because he's always known that the evidence for the shrouds authenticity is very strong, but then he puts out this insane theory that the apostles really didn't see Jesus after he resurrected but they came to believe in the resurrection because they saw his image on the shroud.

This theory has no rational or historical evidence, but then again most of these skeptics of Christianity are more dogmatically emotional skeptics and not intellectual skeptics.

[bippy123]

Dr Thomas De Wesselow,apparently leading expert on medieval art as a 1 hr video on why the Shroud isn't a medieval hoax


http://www.shroud-enigma.com/BSTS/bsts-uk-homepage.html

Interesting, I just got done watching the presentation. Pretty decent presentation, I was mostly intrigued at what the speaker said near the end about doing modern day experiments using real freshly dead corpses and wrapping them in the exact type of material that the shroud was made from and leaving that body wrapped up for thirty six hours or more to see if the body's natural chemicals would adhere to the cloth in such a way that a image would appear.

My question to Bippy or anyone else who might know is, if wrapping freshly dead bodies of people in shrouds, lying them in tombs not just for 36 hours but until their flesh fully decays and then placing their bones in a bone box or ossurary afterwards, shouldn't we already have many shrouds then with many shroud like images of people on them from all the years of people dying and being wrapped in shrouds and placed in tombs until their flesh decays?

Unless the linen quickly decays along with the flesh during the decaying process, archeologists and historians should be able to find other shrouds from that time period and be able to see if any images are left behind. Either way that would be a great experiment to try if it hasn't already been done yet. Does anyone know if such a thing has been done as of yet?

Thanks for the link Swimmy.

DRDS, their have been other shrouds found from Jesus's era and after but I have yet to find one with any image on it , let alone an image as unique as this.

Remember the video link of the jesuit presentation? Remember what the good doctor said about wrapping the body in the shroud and trying to get an image like this and how it's impossible? I can't stress the importance of that presentation.
When a shroud is wrapped around the body, the image would not only be cylindrical but it would be filled with distortions , but the shroud exhibits none of these things. This doesn't even take into account the other unique characteristics like X-ray information, 3d info and a complete lack of side images, and it so happens to fit perfectly with the gospel accounts of the passion and crucifixion.

Pay close attention folks to the atheists that try to debate the evidence of the shroud. Instead of discussing it in a rational manner they will resort to using words like MAGIC (as you can see one in here already doing it), an old rag and a dirty magic sheet. This is how they dismiss over 300 peer reviewed research papers over 30 years. It's funny how atheists will go to any length (even abandon science and logic) to cling to their world view

[bippy123]

I was going to add, if these experiments are done and somehow they come back positive meaning that the chemicals and vapors coming from a decaying body on this type of linen can indeed produce a highly detailed image as Dr. De Wesselow thinks could happen, when taking the other evidence currently that suggests that the Turin Shroud is the Shroud of Christ, could this mean that Christ did not resurrect and that His body was stolen? But if the body was stolen wouldn't there be traces of that possibly on the Shroud like around the blood spots and so on?

This is kinda making me nervous, but Bippy, you know of anything that would either disprove Dr. De Wesselow's hypothesis or show that according to the physical examination of the Shroud that there isn't any direct evidence on the image of any thieves tampering with the body that would suggest them trying to remove the body from the Shroud that would be a great help. Anyways sorry about my concern, it just got me thinking some nervous thoughts.

DRDS first of all the vaporograph theory has long been debunked and there are many evidences against it and the simplest one being that there are no side images at all. Plus take into account the X-ray information and the topographical 3d information that's present on the shroud which isn't a product of body to cloth contact, but is actually spatial information of distance between cloth and body, which means the mechanism that caused the image isn't from cloth to body contact.
De Wesselow apparently has done no homework at all on the unique characteristics that numerous scientists who are experts in their fields have made. What scientific credentials does he have again?

Oops he doesn't have any. He's a clone of Joe Nickell except he does take the good first step and admits to its authenticity.

Lets take a final look at the evidence that will provide the final knockout blow to De Wesselow.
DRDS please go back to the jesuit high video presentation and tell me what the good doctor says about the evidence that the sturp scientists found about the blood clots found on the shroud

He basically says that the sturp team found perfectly preserved blood clots, not one unbroken or smeared.
You cannot remove a bloodied body from a shroud without breaking, disturbing or smearing the blood clots.
Remember their forensic experts studied the blood clots at the microscopic level and didn't even find any disturbances at that level . What this means is that the body could not have been taken off that cloth in any natural way.

It is Wesselow that is the sensationalist here because he hasn't even studied the kindergarten entry level research on the shroud.

Guys please please please study the jesuit high video presentation on the shroud. This guy has been in touch with the sturp scientists for between 20 to 30 years plus.

[bippy123]

Just because something has not yet been explained by science does not mean there is not a scientific explanation. It makes sense to look for a logical and scientific explanation, ie the most likely, first, rather than the least likely (a supernatural explanation)

The problem here jomc20 is that all the evidence here fits very well together and if it leads to a supernatural explanation then why not follow it to its logical conclusion instead of abandoning science and logic altogether and using words like magic to try to deny where the evidence leads.

Aren't you doing the same exact thing here when u deny where the scientific evidence is leading to

There is over 30 years of shroud research available online. I suggest you start at the beginning and tell us what you find, and this time lose the magic word. It may work on rookies but most of us here have been exposed to lots of good evidence on the shroud
God bless

[bippy123]

Let's, just for a moment, put the scientific evidence aside. If natural processes could produce such a shroud, and as over time, countless corpses have been prepared with the very same procedures and process as was the body of Jesus, then where are all the other comparable shrouds? Why aren't at least quite a few more such examples to be found. And how is it that this ancient fabric just happened to long be in the possession of the Church, that has long considered it the actual burial garments of Jesus - and that did so centuries before the discovery of its negative image or all of the extraordinary evidences that modern science has found out about it? Did the Church just get this unfathomably lucky, and just happened to believe, and for many centuries, that it possessed the actual burial garments of Christ, which also just happened to turn out to be the most extraordinary, scientifically inexplicable and most-studied artifact of all time? I don't think so!

Philip now your getting to the meat of the argument here and you also
brilliantly explained why I feel that a huge amount of atheists are atheists from an emotional point of view and not an intellectual point of view. How many coincidences have to take place before it becomes obvious as to what the shroud is telling us. They are in emotional denial.

What does it say about the hardening of hearts?
The shroud shows that you can deny just about anything, but at what point does the denial cease to be logical any longer.

Ok the guys have arrived, it's time for some backgammon and cards
Merry Christmas everyone

[bippy123]

DRDS as far as the radiation theory is concerned yes there are quite a few scientists that believe that the image was formed by some kind of columnated radiation but a far more advanced radiation than anything we can produce or know of today .

Of all the scientists that tried to replicate the shroud Doctor August Accetta came closest and actually replicated a lot (but not most ) of the shrouds unique features when he injected himself with potentially dangerous radioactive material and actually produced an image of his body with many of the unique features of the shroud, but the image he produced was a very elementary image which looked very basic compared to the advanced image on the shroud. This is what convinced Accetta that some type of advanced radiation was responsible for this image formation, as its the only thing that comes even close to explaining the image on the shroud of turin .

Accetta grew up a believer and later in his life turned agnostic because he felt religion was something that people used to comfort themselves because of their fear of death. It was the shroud that pulled him back into looking into Christianity , and also his research into scriptural history that brought him all the way back to faith. Just another amazing story.
He's no slouch either as he is a doctor that has had 4 peer reviewed research papers passed on the shroud.

He runs the shroud research center of Southern California
http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/

All the info in his research is available on his site
Enjoy

[bippy123]

THE SHROUD OF TURIN
The Controversy & The Truth

In 1996, August Accetta, M.D., after becoming acquainted with scientists and researchers, founded the Shroud Center of Southern California for the dual purposes of dedicated research, and of exhibition of all objective known facts, including the theories of critics.

Since then, he has traveled the free world to join the scientists of a variety of specializations who have been continuing in unrelenting research on the mysterious Shroud image. This travel has given Dr. Accetta international exposure enabling the important results of his research to become better known.

Dr. Accetta has published four peer-reviewed papers on the Shroud in the area of Nuclear Imaging, while collaborating with a number of high ranking medical colleagues. He maintains regular contact worldwide with the principal researchers and leading authors pertaining to the Shroud.
http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/founder.html

[bippy123]

5.7c No smears in the bloodstains
The bloodstains do not show any smear or crusts breaking (Marinelli, 1996, Stevenson, 1999), as would be expected if the TSM went physically out of the TS enveloping his body.
The TSM “went out from the TS” in an inexplicable manner, he “disappeared”, but not as a living
man would have done waking up.

http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p07.pdf

This is from a very good article that again talks about the undisturbed blood clots
The original scientist that put this forth was Pierre barbet from the 1940's and it seems like it was confirmed again by marinelli in 96.

[ClassicalTeacher]

Dr Thomas De Wesselow,apparently leading expert on medieval art as a 1 hr video on why the Shroud isn't a medieval hoax


http://www.shroud-enigma.com/BSTS/bsts-uk-homepage.html

Interesting, I just got done watching the presentation. Pretty decent presentation, I was mostly intrigued at what the speaker said near the end about doing modern day experiments using real freshly dead corpses and wrapping them in the exact type of material that the shroud was made from and leaving that body wrapped up for thirty six hours or more to see if the body's natural chemicals would adhere to the cloth in such a way that a image would appear.

My question to Bippy or anyone else who might know is, if wrapping freshly dead bodies of people in shrouds, lying them in tombs not just for 36 hours but until their flesh fully decays and then placing their bones in a bone box or ossurary afterwards, shouldn't we already have many shrouds then with many shroud like images of people on them from all the years of people dying and being wrapped in shrouds and placed in tombs until their flesh decays?

Unless the linen quickly decays along with the flesh during the decaying process, archeologists and historians should be able to find other shrouds from that time period and be able to see if any images are left behind. Either way that would be a great experiment to try if it hasn't already been done yet. Does anyone know if such a thing has been done as of yet?

Thanks for the link Swimmy.

DRDS, their have been other shrouds found from Jesus's era and after but I have yet to find one with any image on it , let alone an image as unique as this.

Remember the video link of the jesuit presentation? Remember what the good doctor said about wrapping the body in the shroud and trying to get an image like this and how it's impossible? I can't stress the importance of that presentation.
When a shroud is wrapped around the body, the image would not only be cylindrical but it would be filled with distortions , but the shroud exhibits none of these things. This doesn't even take into account the other unique characteristics like X-ray information, 3d info and a complete lack of side images, and it so happens to fit perfectly with the gospel accounts of the passion and crucifixion.

Pay close attention folks to the atheists that try to debate the evidence of the shroud. Instead of discussing it in a rational manner they will resort to using words like MAGIC (as you can see one in here already doing it), an old rag and a dirty magic sheet. This is how they dismiss over 300 peer reviewed research papers over 30 years. It's funny how atheists will go to any length (even abandon science and logic) to cling to their world view

It is also interesting to note that atheists will normally use SCIENCE as proof of the non-existence of God, yet when dealing with the Shroud, they quickly abandon those arguments because there are no arguments that explain the supernatural and unexplainable traits of the Shroud.

[RickD]

ClassicalTeacher, as you are a new member, your first few posts have to be approved by a moderator before they appear on the board. Please be patient with us if you don't see your posts right away. You only need to hit "submit" once.

Thanks

[ClassicalTeacher]

Sorry! I thought it was my computer! My computer is a bit slow, so I just thought it was me. No problem now that I know! Thanks for letting me know!

[RickD]

Sorry! I thought it was my computer! My computer is a bit slow, so I just thought it was me. No problem now that I know! Thanks for letting me know!

You're Welcome!

[bippy123]

Hey Classical Teachrr, good to see you again my friend. Welcome to the forum
Yes the shroud does give atheists headaches, because it is a tangible object that can be seen and touched and the evidence keeps piling on, and the evidence keeps pointing to one person in history and that is Christ.

[bippy123]

Oh percival where for art thou oh percival