Why no more miracles?

[Tholossi]

Miracles are still happening today. I personally know lots of people who there has happened miracles to, including myself. If I would just list the ones which there is almost no chance of having happened by chance and has happened to me/people i know, the list would consist of several dozens of stories. However, since you seem to dismiss those, i'll give you some examples of things that literally can't happen.

One person I know had coeliac disease. Note the "had". Coeliac disease is impossible to heal, if you have it, you have it. But after an simple prayer, she was healed. Another example: Another person i know had serious injuries with her arm to the point where an operation was considered. She attended a christian meeting while she hurt so much that she just cried and cried and couldn't stop, and she asked them to pray for her. They did and in an instant everything returned to normal. By the way, both of those spoke with their doctors about it and their response was "that's impossible" and they went on to check whether they still was sick/injured and none of the were, even though it was shown before that they were.

I believe that the strongest evidence for God isn't the strength of every single evidence, but the amount of strong evidences. A few more examples from my life and the lives of persons i know that are nearly unexplainable: I was with a group of christians and one of them had a phonecall and heard that her best friend had been crashed on by a truck and fallen in coma that day, so we decided to pray for her. The next day, she had another phone call and heard that her friend had awakened just a few hours after our prayer. Another story: Another person I know can hear God speak from time to time. One time, she heard God wanting her to take a walk, so she suddenly stood up and did it. God asked her to take another route than normal, and she did. She came upon a big party where kids as young as eleven years drank alcohol to they were drunk and beyond. She called the police and they stopped it before anyone got hurt. Another one again, another person I know was in a trip to another country with a christian group. One of them had a dream about a person taking suicide at a certain place in that city and told everybody, so they went to that place and played music there. I heard that lots of things had happened there, they saw people who were stabbed with knives and alike. The person that told it to me didn't go into too much detail about that, but said that they saw lots of things like that. But while they were there, a person bound to use a wheelchair came, and they prayed for him/her, and that person stood up and walked, and eventually another person came up to them and said that he was planning to commit suicide at that place and had asked God to give him a sign if God didn't want him to do it. He thought of them and their music as the sign. Another person I know has had so many of things such as these happen within her family the her father has been writing books about it. His name is Knut E. Lauritzen. He writes in Norwegian, so you would need to use a translator while reading, but there are loads of more stories in his books.

So these are some of my experiences, I know of more, but I've already told so many of these true stories that it wouldn't surprise me if you would accuse me of making them up. But they are true. Each and every of them. I don't have any proof, you'll just have to believe me. But think through it, if you was in the fourth of those stories and heard God speak directly to you and ask you to do something, would the first thing you do be to grab a videocamera and film yourself saying "God told me to do this and that" and then keep filming while you do what he says you should to prove something to someone else instead of doing what he says? If that's the case, then you don't deserve to be the one God asks to do such things, and if it's not the case, then of course, there is no evidence besides what the people who might have seen you suddenly go for a walk, the people at the party who you might have saved the lives of, the police officers, and you yourself say regarding it, and if a person on the internet later claims that you lie, you can't prove it by anything more than saying that you don't, since that person don't know the other ones involved. You have to trust people. If we expand this example more and say that you actually had filmed it and show the film to the person on the internet, would that be enough to make the person satisfied? I doubt so. You could have known about the party in advance but not said it to anybody so you could make that film and use it in debates such as this. You see, no proof is absolute. There is always a chance of something being wrong, somebody lying and alike, so if you look for absolute proof of anything, you are never going to be satisfied. But people don't lie for no reason, and I have no benefit from lying to you with these stories, and i doubt the people earlier in this thread had any reason either. You can believe our stories and you can chose to not believe in them. That doesn't change the fact that they are true.


Also, you don't have to look far to find more stories. Ask just about any missionary if he has ever witnessed a miracle, i have the impression that it's quite common in places where the bible isn't well known. And also; http://lmgtfy.com/?q=modern+day+christian+miracles

Also, prayer has no effect, you say? http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

[Noah1201]

This is just a variant of the Divine Hiddenness argument. I think there's no good response to that except Calvinism and Inclusivist/Universalist views of salvation.

[MAGSolo]

It's begging the question to ask why miracles don't happen any more (implied premise: there are no miracles today), and then when examples are given that undermine the argument (counter-premise: miracles are happening today) you defend your argument by asking for evidence for said miracle (methodology of requested proof assuming non-existence of miracles--hence, question begging).

No, asking for evidence to support a claim made is not begging the question at all. You cant make a spectacular claim, and then when asked for evidence to that claim, just say thats begging the question. Example: You say humans cant fly, I say I flown before, you ask for some evidence that I have flown, and I say thats begging the question. No that is absolutely not correct. Spectacular claims require some evidence and if amy claims that her son had a broken neck and then it miraculously wasnt broken then she needs to provided evidence that this actually happened. I cant believe you are really sitting here trying to say that asking for evidence to support a claim is begging the question.

To make it clearer still, if I told you I took a shower this morning, you wouldn't bother asking for proof. Why? Because it is part of your normal experience (implied and accepted premise: people take showers today).

Actually no the reason I wouldnt ask for proof is because I would have no reason to doubt you, but if I did doubt you then asking for proof that you actually did take a shower would not be begging the question. When I was a child I had a situation where I was supposed to brush my teeth before I went to bed, and I told my mother I did and she didnt believe me. She asked to smell my breath then she went upstairs and felt my toothbrush to see if it was wet. In looking for evidence to support my claim that I actually did brush my teeth, was my mom begging the question? No she wasnt. All claims require evidence if it is asked for.

Or to use a political example, when someone says, "Why are politics today so much more negative than they used to be?" someone can easily respond with, "My great-grandfather used to tell me stories of how negative it was back then, too." No particular proof of the proof is demanded, because the thing itself is part of our experience.

That's what makes your argument circular. You are asking for proof of the proof, but that very question implies the assumption of the non-existence of miracles, which is precisely what your initial argument was.

There was no proof to begin with so I really have no idea what on Earth you are talking about. What proof was there? There was a claim made and I asked for evidence to support that claim. There is no circular argument and no begging the question here.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

[Silvertusk]

Why did people of ancient times get to witness either miracles directly from God/Jesus or through prophets/disciples but we do not? Why would God just remove all evidence of the supernatural and ask us to believe in the supernatural just based on faith when ancient people were able to witness truly supernatural miracles?

There are still miracles going on today, MAG. I am one of them. I was an atheist just like you and was a member of an atheist organization here in my city and I actively promoted atheism in everything I did and lived my life as an atheist's atheist. Yet God reached down and struck me and called me to be one of his own. That's the last thing I would have wanted but God had other plans.

Re-read amyjo's post; there's a miracle there. There is also a miracle in B.W.'s life (he's also a former vile atheist) and if you like, buy his book where you can read about it for yourself.

FL

Just wondering back through some old posts - Would be interested to hear your testimony FL - unless of course it is somewhere on this forum.

I always find athiest conversions very encouraging.

[MAGSolo]

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

Daniel you seem to be having trouble understanding that asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation. Asking for evidence that something occurred is not the same thing as asking for an explanation for how it occurred.

[1over137]

Mag,

Have you fully understood Dan's sentence?

Miracles by their very nature are beyond any explanation, which is why it is called a miracle, there is no evidence, just the outcome of the event.

Because I did not. What he meant by "there is no evidence, just the outcome"?

[1over137]

Mag, following is from your posts:

I cant believe you are really sitting here trying to say that asking for evidence to support a claim is begging the question.
-
There was no proof to begin with so I really have no idea what on Earth you are talking about.
-
Daniel you seem to be having trouble understanding that asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation.

I wish to give you a friendly advice to change the way you discuss things. I give you an example by rewriting your sentences:

1. I really do not see that asking for evidence to support a claim is begging the question.
2. There was no proof to begin with and I do not understand what you are talking about.
3. Daniel, it seems to me that you misunderstood in that asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation.

Is English your native language?

[Danieltwotwenty]

If there was evidence then there would be a naturalistic explanation of the occured event thus not making it a miralce.

Miracles are also personal to the person who it happened to or to the people who witnessed it, I have seen many miracles happen to myself and to people I know, do I have any evidence, of course not but I don't need any because I am not trying to convince anyone they happened, they are personal to me and have a small part to play in my faith.

You will not believe in miracles until you let them happen to you, let go and trust God and he will reveal himself to you but first you have to leave your ego at the door.

Dan

Daniel you seem to be having trouble understanding that asking for evidence is not the same thing as asking for an explanation. Asking for evidence that something occurred is not the same thing as asking for an explanation for how it occurred.

Ok case in point, a miracle happened to me not long ago and this is the story, I had a friend from church come over to do some bobcat and excavator work in the back yard of my place, while he was there we chatted about some of the new things that where happening at the church, one of those things was an open prayer time, which means that anyone in the church could pray out loud ( in turn of course ) for things that may have been on their heart.

Now I have had a fairly conservative upbringing and I was not used to praying out loud in front of so many people, even though I desperately wanted to. I voiced my concerns with my friend that I was unable to pray in front of so many people, he assured me that this was normal and that he had a similar experience when he was my age, he told me he sat there with his prayer in his head but every time someone finished he was still to frightened to join in but someone prayed his prayer for him, the same thing happened the next week and also the third week until he actually did it himself.

So that week I went to church and again the open prayer time began, I sat there with my prayer in my head waiting for someone to go first as I was too frightened to be first. One of my best mates started, which eased my anxiety a lot so I decided to pray after him, I went to pray but the prayer I said was not my original one and I prayed for a sick family member instead. After I prayed and some other people prayed, my friend that had been at my place ( who was leading the prayer time ) finished up and the last prayer he spoke was my original prayer that I wanted to pray.

I would call that a miracle, do I have evidence, no, you only have my word.

Evidence rarely exists for miracles, people don't sit around waiting for miracles to happen just so they can gather evidence.
I think miracles don't need evidence, because then we would not require faith.
I have yet to see a miracle that has 100 percent proof and I doubt I ever will because by their very nature they don't have any, I also think this is done on purpose so as to not interfere with our free will choices.

You tell me how I could have evidence for such a miracle.


Dan

[Danieltwotwenty]

One thing I forgot to add was that I am more skeptical of a claim of somthing miraculous if they have evidence for it, only because from personal experience that is not how I see God working but in saying that I am not saying they are fake either.

[Kurieuo]

Because in my lifetime I have never seen anything occur that was outside of the physical laws of nature. So for me to believe that the supernatural events that repeatedly occurred in the bible are possible, I would like some proof that supernatural events can occur. Otherwise the supernatural events of the bible can be seen as nothing but fanciful, completely made up stories. I have never seen anything supernatural, so I have no reason to believe that it can occur or that it has ever occurred at any time in human history.

Should we therefore stop questioning at the "big bang" singularity since to go before is to go outside the physical laws of our universe? Or is it, just that, as long as the cause is unintelligent that such a "supernatural" explanation is acceptable?

It is a miracle that the laws of our universe are stable like they are, considering they could have "spawned" otherwise. Or doesn't this count because explaining where the physical laws come from must occur outside of itself?

Must be pretty damn boring, your world of inquiry which always has to be cut short from asking the bigger questions.

[Kurieuo]

Just to comment on my own life.

I've witnessed no physical miracle I'd bet my money on as naturally unexplainable. And yet, I still believe in God, in particular that the historical evidence suggests Christ really did rise from the dead. Is the question of whether miracles occur today, or that we experience or see one therefore relevant to belief? Must one witness a miracle superseding the laws of our physical universe in order to believe? I don't see that this form of argument is sound.

Miracles are by their very nature rare, the OT extends thousands of years. It's not like miracles rampantly happened in the past... your talking significant events in the Tanakh surrounding God's people. But this spans many thousands of years. And I'm sure if you seriously explored miracles or "supernatural" events happening all over the world even just the last 100 years, actually physically going out there and analysing them, that you'd get many that leave you stumped. Have you done this? I haven't. So just because I haven't experienced one myself, doesn't mean anything other than it's to be expected of a miracle that they don't happen to everyone or all the time.

[1over137]

Mag,

What do you think why Jesus said this in John 20:29?
29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”