Biblical Unitarian

[1stjohn0666]

1stjohn wrote:
Are you saying that Jesus and not YHWH was the Genesis account creator? If you say Jesus was creator then what of Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6? I see Jesus removing himself from "claiming" to be the Genesis account creator.

John, this explains how Jesus is the Creator, From:CARM

God created all alone (Isaiah 44:24) - "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone."
All things created by/through Jesus (Colossians 1:16-17) - "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
There is no difficulty here at all when we realize that the Trinity is involved.  The Trinity is the doctrine that God is three persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  The Son is the Word, which was God and with God (John 1:1), that became flesh in Jesus (John 1:14).  Since Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and He has two natures, divine and human (Col. 2:9), we can then have Jesus being the creator and God being the creator alone.  In other words, Jesus is God and God created all things alone.

Isaiah is YHWH only not Jesus. When I read the Greek of Col For "by" (en) him all things were created, is not how I see it. (en)... For (en) in him all things were created. Jesus created nothing. Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6, Heb 4:4. Carm is a good website for the trinitarian believer, but I disagree with a small portion of what they have to offer.

[1stjohn0666]

I just read through and saw this very confusing
The Trinity is the doctrine that God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son is the Word, which was God and with God (John 1:1), that became flesh in Jesus (John 1:14). Since Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and He has two natures, divine and human (Col. 2:9), we can then have Jesus being the creator and God being the creator alone. In other words, Jesus is God and God created all things alone.

This is not the trinitarian doctrine at all, it is the oneness ideology, or it simply is a confused trinitarian or oneness.

James White says it best for me to understand the trinity "Three who's in one what"

[RickD]

I just read through and saw this very confusing
The Trinity is the doctrine that God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son is the Word, which was God and with God (John 1:1), that became flesh in Jesus (John 1:14). Since Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and He has two natures, divine and human (Col. 2:9), we can then have Jesus being the creator and God being the creator alone. In other words, Jesus is God and God created all things alone.

This is not the trinitarian doctrine at all, it is the oneness ideology, or it simply is a confused trinitarian or oneness.

John, this is the Trinity. God is one God in three persons.

Isaiah is YHWH only not Jesus.

John, YHWH is Jesus. All the attributes of YHWH, are the same attributes of Jesus.

[RickD]

John, the James White you mentioned, I assume, is the James White from Alpha & Omega Ministries. This is what he says about the trinity, from:http://www.aomin.org/articles/statement.html

We believe the Bible teaches that there is but one being of God, yet there are three Persons who share this one being of God: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each Person is fully and completely God, each is described in Scripture as possessing the attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed in the relationship described by the term "Trinity."

Each person in the trinity possesses all the attributes of God. Therefore, Jesus possesses all the attributes that the Old Testament says YHWH has.

[PaulSacramento]

John, not to give you the impression you are being ganged up on, but I too did not believe in the Trinity for a log time.
First because I did not understand it, second because of JW influence that misrepresented what it was.
I am still not a big fan of the Trinity doctrine AS IT IS EXPLAINED because it is still worded in a way that tend to confuse more than clear up.
IN a nutshell, The Father, Son and the HS all share the same nature, attributes and qualities and those we attribute to "God", hence all 3 are "God".
The term God being a term of "definition" and not of Identity or a Name.
This is the ONLY way that the MANY passages that state that Jesus is God (all those in GOJ), that He is the same as God ( Colossians and Philippians and Hebrews).
To deny the Deity of Christ is to call the writers of those letters "liars" at worse and "disillusioned" at best.

[1stjohn0666]

John, the James White you mentioned, I assume, is the James White from Alpha & Omega Ministries. This is what he says about the trinity, from:http://www.aomin.org/articles/statement.html

We believe the Bible teaches that there is but one being of God, yet there are three Persons who share this one being of God: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each Person is fully and completely God, each is described in Scripture as possessing the attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed in the relationship described by the term "Trinity."

Each person in the trinity possesses all the attributes of God. Therefore, Jesus possesses all the attributes that the Old Testament says YHWH has.

Yes, that James White. He does not like Psalm 110:1 "YHWH says to adoni" or as the Jew would say and as the Hebrew scripture reads "Adonai says to adoni" or as James White would say "Adonai says to Adonai" the last being what James White would say, would be "God says to God" Why would God talk to himself?

[RickD]

John, the James White you mentioned, I assume, is the James White from Alpha & Omega Ministries. This is what he says about the trinity, from:http://www.aomin.org/articles/statement.html

We believe the Bible teaches that there is but one being of God, yet there are three Persons who share this one being of God: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each Person is fully and completely God, each is described in Scripture as possessing the attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed in the relationship described by the term "Trinity."

Each person in the trinity possesses all the attributes of God. Therefore, Jesus possesses all the attributes that the Old Testament says YHWH has.

Yes, that James White. He does not like Psalm 110:1 "YHWH says to adoni" or as the Jew would say and as the Hebrew scripture reads "Adonai says to adoni" or as James White would say "Adonai says to Adonai" the last being what James White would say, would be "God says to God" Why would God talk to himself?

John,
I see this as more proof in the OT, for a Trinitarian view of God. How can God talk to God unless 1) God is more than one person? And, 2) Each person is God?

[1stjohn0666]

I see the scrip YHWH says to adoni .... adoni in all of the bible never means deity. It is not God talking to God, but God talking to someone who is NOT God. Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse used in the NT .. pretty neat fact.

[PaulSacramento]

John, the James White you mentioned, I assume, is the James White from Alpha & Omega Ministries. This is what he says about the trinity, from:http://www.aomin.org/articles/statement.html

We believe the Bible teaches that there is but one being of God, yet there are three Persons who share this one being of God: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Each Person is fully and completely God, each is described in Scripture as possessing the attributes of God. The Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed in the relationship described by the term "Trinity."

Each person in the trinity possesses all the attributes of God. Therefore, Jesus possesses all the attributes that the Old Testament says YHWH has.

Yes, that James White. He does not like Psalm 110:1 "YHWH says to adoni" or as the Jew would say and as the Hebrew scripture reads "Adonai says to adoni" or as James White would say "Adonai says to Adonai" the last being what James White would say, would be "God says to God" Why would God talk to himself?

Why would God talk to Himself?
Well, if according to your view there was a time that there was no Son of God then isn't that what God did anyways?

[RickD]

I see the scrip YHWH says to adoni .... adoni in all of the bible never means deity. It is not God talking to God, but God talking to someone who is NOT God. Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse used in the NT .. pretty neat fact.

John, from my understanding, Adoni means "My Lord". Adon means Lord, and adding the "i" is saying my Lord. Adoni does not say "not God". Adoni simply means "My Lord".

And addressing the seven times Psalm 110:1 is quoted in the NT, what's amazing, is that where the verse is quoted, speaks about Jesus being both God, and man. Depending on where Psalm 110:1 is being quoted. Check it out for yourself. It's pretty amazing.

[PaulSacramento]

We should be clear that the OT concept of God was NOT as developed as it became when Christ came.
Progressive Revelation of God's plan and WHO God is, is quite clear as we read the OT with understanding from the NT.

[PaulSacramento]

Genesis 18 is, IMO, a perfect example of this.
Note the THREE visitors, ALL 3 addressed as LORD, ALL 3 speaking as ONE.
18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.

9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14 Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

[Philip]

I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Interestingly, another point of Scripture in which God reacts to man in real time, and yet He already knows everything about all current situations as well as future outcomes."

[1stjohn0666]

I see the scrip YHWH says to adoni .... adoni in all of the bible never means deity. It is not God talking to God, but God talking to someone who is NOT God. Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse used in the NT .. pretty neat fact.

John, from my understanding, Adoni means "My Lord". Adon means Lord, and adding the "i" is saying my Lord. Adoni does not say "not God". Adoni simply means "My Lord".

And addressing the seven times Psalm 110:1 is quoted in the NT, what's amazing, is that where the verse is quoted, speaks about Jesus being both God, and man. Depending on where Psalm 110:1 is being quoted. Check it out for yourself. It's pretty amazing.

Over 20 times is Psalm 110:1 quoted or alluded to!! I love it. Jesus silenced the Jews with it.

[B. W.]

I see the scrip YHWH says to adoni .... adoni in all of the bible never means deity. It is not God talking to God, but God talking to someone who is NOT God. Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse used in the NT .. pretty neat fact.

John, from my understanding, Adoni means "My Lord". Adon means Lord, and adding the "i" is saying my Lord. Adoni does not say "not God". Adoni simply means "My Lord".

And addressing the seven times Psalm 110:1 is quoted in the NT, what's amazing, is that where the verse is quoted, speaks about Jesus being both God, and man. Depending on where Psalm 110:1 is being quoted. Check it out for yourself. It's pretty amazing.

Over 20 times is Psalm 110:1 quoted or alluded to!! I love it. Jesus silenced the Jews with it.

1stjohn0666,

Yes and the Rabbinic Jews Jesus spoke too were Unitarian too... and this Speaks volumes...

God’s true from is unlike anything we can imagine in order for there to be 'None like God' in the absolute sense. Best we can do is not to make His oneness of being like anything on earth or even ourselves. Jesus spoke regarding God as Spirit. God’s spiritual essence, we can only gain a dim glimpse of but from the bible He reveals that His One essence has three self existing functions which he reveals to humanity individually. Each of these has their own attributes, which we call persons which form God’s essence and due to the self existing nature of God himself each are self existingly unique.

I like the water analogy CARM uses to help grasp the Nature of God. Think of God’s essence as a large body of water (the Father). What proceeds from the water is Ice and Vapor. Both are the same substance, yet, each is distinct and different. Each has certain functions. For example Ice can break rocks and Vapor can spread life giving water to far off places. So if you try to grasp the oneness of God that way, you’ll see why Jesus is called the Word (logos) who gives life to the world and the Holy Spirit (the power to shape life).

Jesus did say that He and the Holy Spirit proceed forth from God (the Father) to do the Will of the Father. Due to God’s self existing nature, these functionaries likewise are self existing containing the same essence as the Father, yet, each, living persons within one being. That is why the metaphor of the arm of the Lord, or Malak (Messenger), or the pillar of Fire and the Cloud are used to describe God in the OT.

Next, God, in his full one nature is Holy. So God reveals Himself according to his self existing nature in manner that sinful unholy human beings are not consumed in the theophanies in which he appears in the OT as three men to Abraham, or as the Malak YHWH to Moses, and to Manoah’s and his wife, to the 70 elders of Israel who dined with the Lord in Exodus, and Jacob, etc,,.

From the bible, it fully appears that the people of old understood this and longed for YHWH – the Arm – The Malek YHWH – to appear as a Son to Man in order to reconcile the divide between God and man – so we can become adopted sons/daughters to God. This one was prophesied about in the bible – the incarnation of the Malek/Arm/Word/Task bearing YHWH coming in human form as the Messiah (God and man reconciled) to save and seal, justly, people who place their trust in such Grace God shown to mankind – coming as one of us to expose sin, conquer it, and send forth the Holy Spirit to take up living residence to seal such believers forever his own special people.

Now on to you comment to me concerning the Holy Spirit:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is a living person, as is Jesus the Son, each carry out the purposes of the Father’s will according to their own shared self existing nature and functions. You see, we do not worship three separate gods or Baptize into three separate gods but rather One God, as he reveals himself to be.

So the Holy Spirit is not a person to you? Then what is he to You?

Look at how God speaks in the verses below and his own usage of speech…

Isa 48:16, 17, "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD (Adonai Elohim) and His Spirit Have sent Me. 17 Thus says (YHWH) the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am (YHWH) the LORD your God (Elohim), Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.." NKJV

Notice the ‘I am’ statement in verse 17 and it actually reads I AM YHWH… it is an I AM statement. Jesus spoke that way in John 8:56, 57, 58c and as well in Exodus 3:14.

Here are the same verses in layman Hebrew term names used for God:

Isa 48:16, 17, "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Adonai Elohim and His Spirit Have sent Me. 17 Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I Am YHWH your Elohim, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.." NKJV

What do you see?
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