Shroud of Turin

[tetelesti]

The shroud is what it is, like any ancient arifacts we can study them and learn things from them about history, culture and events that transpired long ago.

Tetelesti wrote:
What it is is unsupported in scripture...

Tetelesti, do you believe the earth is the planet third farthest from the sun, even though that belief is not supported by scripture?

Is this your way of saying that the shroud isn't supported in scripture? Your comparing apples to oranges here.... So what signifies a "sign", how can it be validated. That's my only premise, the only thing I'm trying to point put. What's the scriptural standard for claiming the shroud is a sign from God? Just connect the scriptural dots for me.

Tetelesti, there's nothing wrong with skepticism. But, don't you think it's only fair to make an educated decision about the shroud's authenticity? Unless you are saying you have researched it, and have evidence that it's not real.

Absolutely, I never stated that I have a problem with anyone researching the shroud. Hence again why I posted several links by Gary Habermas who supports it.

For me, I'll do some research and I may or may not come to a decision about its authenticity. It really has no bearing whatsoever on my faith. And anybody whose faith relies on the authenticity of the shroud, really has a weak or false faith.

Awesome, and I'm quite certain everyone here feels the same way as you do. What would be interesting though if someone here actually knew or cared about false sign and wonders, especially since there coming in the latter days and by all reasonable account were in the latter days.

[Philip]

Don't tell me you've never seen Killer Klowns From outer space?

Rick, I am so culturally deprived. Somehow I missed that one on all of Siskel and Ebert's "must see" lists. But, hey, if it's got clowns from outer space that are killing people, what's not to like? And I do see that Emmett Kelly, Jr gave it five pies. And EK, Jr.'s son was convicted of murder (Yes, I'm beginning to see that the clown conspiracy theorists may be right.).

[tetelesti]

Tetelesti, I really don't get what you're on about. Even if the Shroud is real, it can certainly be wrongly worshiped

Just as the Nehushtan was real and then later destroyed so it wouldn't become an object of worship. The shroud has been worshipped by head figures in christendom. Do you understand eschatology? Do you realize that satan well appear on the scene and claim to be God? Do you realize that hordes of supposed christians chase and follow images and signs?

You'll never give me an answer to this question, but I'll keep asking: "What is the standard you use to support the shroud being a sign from God?" You won't exegetically discuss this on any level. You can start by defining what a sign signifies in scripture? What's the purpose of a sign? How can we know it's a sign from God?

You can follow this link back to my previous post concerning signs if you need some examples:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=495

I have every confidence that you'll just detract the issue, looking forward to something more...

But, clearly, Satan would have to have the ability to know the future and to have known it's eventual technology to have engineered the Shroud as it is. Can Satan make REAL blood, and not just a counterfeit? Do we have any Biblical evidence of Satan creating physical objects - REAL, examinable physical objects? I don't think so.

Then you would be mistaken, because Satan does have the ability to perform signs and wonders, which are significant in displaying his power. Know that Satan is second only to God. He deceived a third of the angels, because he is the second most powerful force in existence.

Exodus 7:10-11 "So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts."

Exodus 7:20-23 "So Moses and Aaron did even as the LORD had commanded. And he lifted up the staff and struck the water that was in the Nile, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, and all the water that was in the Nile was turned to blood. The fish that were in the Nile died, and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. And the blood was through all the land of Egypt. But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Then Pharaoh turned and went into his house with no concern even for this."

Again, how unlikely that Satan would create an artifact that he well knows would encourage believe in Jesus death and Resurrection - that makes very little sense. And as the Shroud has now been so extensively analyzed and believed in by millions - if Satan had created such a deception, why has he not yet exposed it as being just another fake Christian relic?

It actually makes perfect sense if you knew how Satan operates. What does anti-christ really mean? It's not against Christ, but rather in place of Christ. He will come as Christ. He will be worshipped were? on the throne in the Temple. Jesus had a 3 and a half year ministry, so Satan will have a three and a half year ministry before declaring himself God. He gets equal time because he comes in the likeness of Christ. He even has a false prophet who makes a way for him, mimicking John the Baptist. Who is the star of the morning? Satan, because he comes as Christ who is the Bright and Morning Star.

I'm bouncing out of this thread. If you decide to actually respond to my inquiries then just sent me a PM, I'll come back...Bye

Be Blessed Philip

[Danieltwotwenty]

Tetelesti I am not trying to be rude in saying this and I do truly believe what I say. I think you have a lot of fear inside you, your afraid that satan is hiding under rocks waiting to jump out and capture you. Fear I have found from experience is a tool used by satan, because if we are afraid we are not trusting In God, he uses fear as a distraction and it will turn you into a wreak. C.S.Lewis goes into this in the Screwtape Letters, it is an excellent book on how satan influences our thoughts.

Whatever you say Yoda. Regarding "your afraid that satan is hiding under rocks waiting to jump out and capture you", maybe we should refer to scripture and see what the bible actually says about satan.

"And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve"

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat"

"But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit"

"Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme

"Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour"

"Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil"

"do not let the sun go down on your anger,and do not give the devil an opportunity"

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil"

Apparently satan is waiting to jump out and capture me....don't you think?

I see nothing to respond to, you just proved my point about trusting God and having nothing to fear from satan.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I never stated that signs and wonders weren’t from God, I merely pointed out the fact that I don’t believe the Shroud is a sign. Why? Again because it can and did become an object of idolatry. If you reference the links I provided earlier you’d see a prominent figure bowing before the shroud. It's well documented that it did become an object of worship. Idols are a subject that scripture clearly forbids.

The shroud is not an idol unless you make it one, I doubt anyone here would be praying to a piece of cloth or worshipping it, this is just a curiosity and possibly a miracules sign that our beloved Jesus lefts us, nothing more and nothing less.

Hmm...I can just as easily say, the shroud is only a sign from God if you make it one.
Anyways we don't believe in curiosities and possible miracles...do we?

"In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness"

If you find the cloth may become an idol for yourself, then run away from it and don't look back, but for the rest of us we can view it for what it is.

So what is the shroud? I ask this is all seriousness...

If you quote the bible, please provide book, chapter and verse.

Are these forum guidelines??? You know chapter and verse where after the fact.

That verse is talking about folk lore and fables, not real and tangible arifacts.

So the supposed image of Christ on the shroud is what? a fact...

By your reasoning we should abandon all scientific inquiry. You have pulled that verse way out of context and twisted it to mean what you want it too.

So I'm I too understand that by your apparent reasoning I'm too believe in the shroud because of science?

You say we "believe" in the shroud, please don't put words in our mouths, no one here believes in the shroud, our beliefs are firmly in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We may have reasons to have beliefs about the shroud but we most certainly do not believe in it. There is definitely a distinction between the two or else pretty much everything becomes and idol in your eyes.

The shroud is what it is, like any ancient arifacts we can study them and learn things from them about history, culture and events that transpired long ago.

What it is is unsupported in scripture...

Like I said if you find that these types of things could be a stumbling block for your faith, then run far away. For the rest of us, we honor God in all things we do, we praise Jesus' mighty name because he has justified us through his blood and convicted us with his Holy Spirit and I have not been convicted that the shroud has become an idol for me, no more than any other interest I hold, because I honor God in everything I do.

This is the best part of your post.

Quote book chapter and verse, because others who may not know their Bible will know where to look.

The image on the shroud is not a fact, that's why it is being studied.

Who said anything about believeing in the shroud.

There is really nothing of substance to your post, only scare tactics and false allegations.
No one here is going to bother to defend with scripture, because there is nothing to defend. No one here worships a piece of cloth, this is just scientific inquiry and nothing more, if it was proved a fake I doubt anyone here would really care, if anything it would be a relief that finally the truth has been found.

If you take issue with it then go in peace to love and serve The Lord, but keep your false allegations and snide comments to yourself.


Go in peace with Jesus at your side.

[Philip]

Tetelesti's arrogance conveniently addressed only the questions and points that he wants to - and then he throws some more rocks over the fence and then storms off. He acts as if we are naive or don't realize that Satan is a deceiver on a grand scale. Yes, we know that Satan has metaphysical abilities. But what we don't see in Scripture is him constantly faking objects and creating things supportive of God's truth. Everything we've seen scientifically supported about the Shroud supports a Resurrected Jesus per what Scripture says about it.

And as for some of these metaphysical things, like Pharaoh's magician's magical snakes - yes they APPEAR to be the real deal - but WERE they? And what would have been found about them if they had been examined by modern science? Of course, the demonic didn't create the counterfeit snakes to fool modern science, but they were designed to fool people in Moses day. And as all of Satan's deceptions are cheap imitations of the power and beauty of those of God, I wouldn't dismiss the likely probability that modern scientific analysis would have clearly discovered that Pharaoh's magicians had been unable to create real serpents, but only clever deceptions. At the time, Satan would have had no idea of the level of sophistication of today's science - or even of the science and photography of just 100 years ago - unless he could tell the future - which he cannot.

Think of all of the old manuscripts that eventually became accepted as Scripture - this same sort of accusation could be raised against them. And I see that Tetelesti is a Progressive Creationist - and he came to this understanding of Creation how? - likely through very many scientific signs of various sciences - so were these signs Satanically produced and false? I think the Big Bang is a powerful evidence - a sign, if you will - of our Creator God - so are the evidences and studies supporting that event produced by Satan? I see DNA code as a sign of God's handiwork - or is that only Satanically created? What is different about God creating and leaving physical signs and that of a Resurrected Jesus leaving an inexplicable artifact like the Shroud? Of course, the question is, Did He do this. But to say He'd never leave physical evidences as signs is not Scriptural.

Paul and Barnabus spent much time using logical arguments and "proofs" that pointed to Jesus as being the Messiah, and as we said, Jesus told us some people needed signs and wonders to even believe. And the things Bippy has been revealing about the Shroud, most certainly appear to be miraculous, and as things for which, so far, appear to have no other explanation. And it is these very such things - that have no other realistic explanations - that collectively point as signs towards God.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Phillip have you seen the movie The Water Boy with Adam Sandler, very funny movie but seriously Tetelesti's reasoning sounds very much like Bobby Boucher's mother, everything is the devil!!

Some people look at the world and all they see is darkness everywhere, when I look at the world I see God's glory, it is written in the stars and over all creation.

Psalm 19:1


Dan

[RickD]

Guys, I don't see the shroud as part of false signs and wonders. If you want false signs and wonders, google Rodney Howard Browne. Just from the little research I've done on the shroud, it doesn't appear to be some kind of demonic deception. At worst, it's a shroud of someone else besides Christ, and therefore a fake. I'm not saying it's a fake, just that I don't see it as demonic. If you want to see what I believe is possibly demonic manifestation, look at Rodney Howard Browne. Much of what he does is certainly intentional on his part, but I believe some is demonic.

[RickD]

Don't tell me you've never seen Killer Klowns From outer space?

Rick, I am so culturally deprived. Somehow I missed that one on all of Siskel and Ebert's "must see" lists. But, hey, if it's got clowns from outer space that are killing people, what's not to like? And I do see that Emmett Kelly, Jr gave it five pies. And EK, Jr.'s son was convicted of murder (Yes, I'm beginning to see that the clown conspiracy theorists may be right.).

Philip, here's the scene that my avatar picture is taken from:
What are you gonna do with those pies, boys?

[bippy123]

Don't tell me you've never seen Killer Klowns From outer space?

Rick, I am so culturally deprived. Somehow I missed that one on all of Siskel and Ebert's "must see" lists. But, hey, if it's got clowns from outer space that are killing people, what's not to like? And I do see that Emmett Kelly, Jr gave it five pies. And EK, Jr.'s son was convicted of murder (Yes, I'm beginning to see that the clown conspiracy theorists may be right.).

Philip, here's the scene that my avatar picture is taken from:
What are you gonna do with those pies, boys?

dang Rick, that reminds me a nightmare I had when I was a ki8d

[RickD]

Don't tell me you've never seen Killer Klowns From outer space?

Rick, I am so culturally deprived. Somehow I missed that one on all of Siskel and Ebert's "must see" lists. But, hey, if it's got clowns from outer space that are killing people, what's not to like? And I do see that Emmett Kelly, Jr gave it five pies. And EK, Jr.'s son was convicted of murder (Yes, I'm beginning to see that the clown conspiracy theorists may be right.).

Philip, here's the scene that my avatar picture is taken from:
What are you gonna do with those pies, boys?

dang Rick, that reminds me a nightmare I had when I was a ki8d

Sorry Bippy. I hope you sleep ok tonight.

[bippy123]

Don't tell me you've never seen Killer Klowns From outer space?

Rick, I am so culturally deprived. Somehow I missed that one on all of Siskel and Ebert's "must see" lists. But, hey, if it's got clowns from outer space that are killing people, what's not to like? And I do see that Emmett Kelly, Jr gave it five pies. And EK, Jr.'s son was convicted of murder (Yes, I'm beginning to see that the clown conspiracy theorists may be right.).

Philip, here's the scene that my avatar picture is taken from:
What are you gonna do with those pies, boys?

dang Rick, that reminds me a nightmare I had when I was a ki8d

Sorry Bippy. I hope you sleep ok tonight.

As long as that clown doesn't come out of a 25 cent gum all machine and inflates to life size proportions Rick ill be ok, oops reliving that dream again lol.
Then again there was the top hat man , oops that was another dream lol.

[neo-x]

You guys want to know about scary clowns? Read "It" by Stephen King or The "Grin of the Dark" by Ramsey Campbell. Absolutely great horror books.

[Danieltwotwenty]

You guys want to know about scary clowns? Read "It" by Stephen King or The "Grin of the Dark" by Ramsey Campbell. Absolutely great horror books.

IT was one of the first Stephen King books I read when I was a teen, loved it.

Stephen King has a lot of Christian themes in his books, I read a bio about him sometime ago and these themes are no accident, he rejects mainstream religious institutions but reads his Bible and as far as I am aware follows Christ, bu I could be wrong on that.

Dan

[neo-x]

IT was one of the first Stephen King books I read when I was a teen, loved it.

It is just my opinion but "IT" is by far the best horror novel of all. It is hard to read, given its unusual epic length, but worth it. I have read a LOT of Stephen king, big fan of horror fiction.

Stephen King has a lot of Christian themes in his books, I read a bio about him sometime ago and these themes are no accident, he rejects mainstream religious institutions but reads his Bible and as far as I am aware follows Christ, bu I could be wrong on that.

Yes I read something similar but who knows what goes inside a man's heart. One good thing was that he was absolutely non-condemning when his daughter came out as gay.