Question about prayer vs. natural healing processes

[cubeus19]

Recently I got to thinking about this. For quite sometime I've heard that the human body has the ability to heal itself of sometimes many serious or sometimes nearly fatal illnesses.

But also in addition for pretty much all my life have heard of many situations where people with serious or sometimes near fatal illnesses get better after they themselves or with the additional help of others pray for supernatural healing.

Now what I'm concerned about is, are most or if not all these answered prayers for healing are not the supernatural act of God but rather just the body's natural mechanisms and methods of healing do the work instead?

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

Do you all know of any? That the supernatural hand of God would be the only possible reason why this person or that person was healed? And again this is regarding modern day accounts and not just the biblical accounts where many of them surely would have to have been done through supernatural means. I look forward to seeing what you all know. Thanks!

[Byblos]

Recently I got to thinking about this. For quite sometime I've heard that the human body has the ability to heal itself of sometimes many serious or sometimes nearly fatal illnesses.

But also in addition for pretty much all my life have heard of many situations where people with serious or sometimes near fatal illnesses get better after they themselves or with the additional help of others pray for supernatural healing.

Now what I'm concerned about is, are most or if not all these answered prayers for healing are not the supernatural act of God but rather just the body's natural mechanisms and methods of healing do the work instead?

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

Do you all know of any? That the supernatural hand of God would be the only possible reason why this person or that person was healed? And again this is regarding modern day accounts and not just the biblical accounts where many of them surely would have to have been done through supernatural means. I look forward to seeing what you all know. Thanks!

Well you can cite pretty much any (or all) the saintly miracles rigorously investigated and so pronounced by the Vatican. Or not.

[RickD]

I kid you not , after a month long fast, I had a loaf of bread with an image of Jesus on it. It must have been supernatural, because after I ate it, my hunger pains were cured.

And, I actually went to a church in which the pastor there had the gift of healing. After sitting through five minutes of his sermon, I was immediately cured of my insomnia.

Sorry, I used up my allotment of serious posting in another thread.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Recently I got to thinking about this. For quite sometime I've heard that the human body has the ability to heal itself of sometimes many serious or sometimes nearly fatal illnesses.

But also in addition for pretty much all my life have heard of many situations where people with serious or sometimes near fatal illnesses get better after they themselves or with the additional help of others pray for supernatural healing.

Now what I'm concerned about is, are most or if not all these answered prayers for healing are not the supernatural act of God but rather just the body's natural mechanisms and methods of healing do the work instead?

Why not both, In my opinion God put the laws of the universe in place so even if it is natural it is still from God, God works through the natural world, miracles need not have a supernatural explanation.

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

I believe God is gracious to all people, atheist, Hindu, Islamic etc.... why would he not heal them either, maybe through their situation he could lead them to him.

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

I believe it is all, God, positive thinking, natural processes, they are all a part of the same system and plan.

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

I have experienced healing's and no healing's, sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes it just our time to go.

Do you all know of any? That the supernatural hand of God would be the only possible reason why this person or that person was healed? And again this is regarding modern day accounts and not just the biblical accounts where many of them surely would have to have been done through supernatural means. I look forward to seeing what you all know. Thanks!

I know of a lot of people being healed, but this is the thing, if you really want to see a naturalistic explanation you will, if you want to see God at work you will, depends on your world view perspective.


Dan

[cubeus19]

Recently I got to thinking about this. For quite sometime I've heard that the human body has the ability to heal itself of sometimes many serious or sometimes nearly fatal illnesses.

But also in addition for pretty much all my life have heard of many situations where people with serious or sometimes near fatal illnesses get better after they themselves or with the additional help of others pray for supernatural healing.

Now what I'm concerned about is, are most or if not all these answered prayers for healing are not the supernatural act of God but rather just the body's natural mechanisms and methods of healing do the work instead?

Why not both, In my opinion God put the laws of the universe in place so even if it is natural it is still from God, God works through the natural world, miracles need not have a supernatural explanation.

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

I believe God is gracious to all people, atheist, Hindu, Islamic etc.... why would he not heal them either, maybe through their situation he could lead them to him.

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

I believe it is all, God, positive thinking, natural processes, they are all a part of the same system and plan.

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

I have experienced healing's and no healing's, sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes it just our time to go.

Do you all know of any? That the supernatural hand of God would be the only possible reason why this person or that person was healed? And again this is regarding modern day accounts and not just the biblical accounts where many of them surely would have to have been done through supernatural means. I look forward to seeing what you all know. Thanks!

I know of a lot of people being healed, but this is the thing, if you really want to see a naturalistic explanation you will, if you want to see God at work you will, depends on your world view perspective.


Dan

That was kinda weak. Sorta reminds me of a yec type response. But thanks anyway I guess.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Recently I got to thinking about this. For quite sometime I've heard that the human body has the ability to heal itself of sometimes many serious or sometimes nearly fatal illnesses.

But also in addition for pretty much all my life have heard of many situations where people with serious or sometimes near fatal illnesses get better after they themselves or with the additional help of others pray for supernatural healing.

Now what I'm concerned about is, are most or if not all these answered prayers for healing are not the supernatural act of God but rather just the body's natural mechanisms and methods of healing do the work instead?

Why not both, In my opinion God put the laws of the universe in place so even if it is natural it is still from God, God works through the natural world, miracles need not have a supernatural explanation.

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

I believe God is gracious to all people, atheist, Hindu, Islamic etc.... why would he not heal them either, maybe through their situation he could lead them to him.

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

I believe it is all, God, positive thinking, natural processes, they are all a part of the same system and plan.

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

I have experienced healing's and no healing's, sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes it just our time to go.

Do you all know of any? That the supernatural hand of God would be the only possible reason why this person or that person was healed? And again this is regarding modern day accounts and not just the biblical accounts where many of them surely would have to have been done through supernatural means. I look forward to seeing what you all know. Thanks!

I know of a lot of people being healed, but this is the thing, if you really want to see a naturalistic explanation you will, if you want to see God at work you will, depends on your world view perspective.


Dan

That was kinda weak. Sorta reminds me of a yec type response. But thanks anyway I guess.

How is it weak, this is exactly how I view the world.

Just because I take a simplistic approach does not mean it is weak, I think people over complicate everything and make them harder than they need to be.

What is a Y.E.C type of response??

[cubeus19]

I remember you saying something about "it depends upon our worldview" which sounds to me like you are saying "preconceived notions" which means you probably like to take a presuppositional apologetics viewpoint. Which that I'm not, I'm a evidentialist. Not to mention, I see this kind of method employed quite a lot by yec advocates.

And what I"m really wanting to see are there any specific evidential accounts of people being healed like in the last fifty or so years of something major that the human body by itself or without the aid of modern medicine can heal which would then leave the supernatural as the main explanation.

I'm sure there are some out there, I was just curious if you or anyone else on here knows of such cases. That's what I"m looking for.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I remember you saying something about "it depends upon our worldview" which sounds to me like you are saying "preconceived notions" which means you probably like to take a presuppositional apologetics viewpoint. Which that I'm not, I'm a evidentialist. Not to mention, I see this kind of method employed quite a lot by yec advocates.

And what I"m really wanting to see are there any specific evidential accounts of people being healed like in the last fifty or so years of something major that the human body by itself or without the aid of modern medicine can heal which would then leave the supernatural as the main explanation.

I'm sure there are some out there, I was just curious if you or anyone else on here knows of such cases. That's what I"m looking for.

Ahh I see now, sorry I was a little vague, I thought you were asking more of a philosophical question.

I know of cases that have happened to friends but unfortunately they are not documented, I have no reason to doubt them but there is no "evidence" for the event.

I can only retell the story.

By the way I sit between evidential and presuppositional, I use both arguments as I think they are both valid.
I guess I take a more overall approach.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Currently reading C.S.Lewis' Miracles which covers this topic, if you ever get the time to read it, it is well worth it.

Dan

[Ivellious]

Just a couple quick points to bring up on this topic.

First, I would like to say that it is not really accurate to say that just because something positive happened in the absence of or in addition to modern medicine, that does not automatically mean that the only answer is a supernatural intervention. The human body is capable of amazing things sometimes, some of which we don't fully understand from a medical perspective. Go back a hundred years and some cases of healing might have been considered "miraculous" or "divine", but in reality we now know that we simply lacked the knowledge to understand it at the time. Simply put, it would be a false dichotomy to say that if medicine has no answer, it must have been God.

And if that's the case don't people with such illnesses get better then without any prayer or would they get better if people prayed to false gods like the Islam god or the hindu gods?

Or how about just plain positive thinking? Does the positive thinking aspect do the healing with thus no need for God to do anything supernatural to aid the healing?

I think you might have hit my point right on the head here. There are loads of evidence to suggest that positive thinking -- whether through prayer, meditation, or simply knowing that others are praying for you -- can have a huge impact on recovery from various illnesses and ailments.

And, like you said, people can and have suddenly gotten better despite the odds regardless of faith or lack thereof. If faith healing was actually a reliable medical tool, you can bet it would be used. It just isn't.

And finally perhaps there are incidents in more modern times that you all either were a part of or know about as far as people being healed in which the illness or injury was so bad that no positive thinking or human body natural healing process could achieve?

It shouldn't be too hard to find examples of people who claim to have been miraculously healed without or in spite of medical treatments. Some of which will sound incredible. Granted, many of these stories are likely exaggerated (or, in cases of faith healers like Benny Hinn, just flat-out lies), but they certainly do exist. And I don't doubt that some stories are very true. For example, cancer does sometimes go into spontaneous remission without any known explanation. But for stories about genetic conditions magically disappearing or permanent spinal injury victims suddenly running marathons? I'd take those with a grain of salt.

And, sad as it may be, there are an equal number of stories you can find about people refusing modern medical attention for very treatable conditions (usually in favor of prayer) and paying greatly for it, sometimes with their lives.

When you look at it from a broad perspective, prayer in itself has a miserable success rate when it comes to medical applications. I'm not saying prayer is stupid or a bad thing to do for people suffering from various medical problems, but there is really no reason to to give it credit when you pray and someone gets better. In a practical sense, I would relate it to an athlete who has a specific ritual before they go out to play (many pray, even). Even if most of the time they don't do anything spectacular, would you suddenly say that their little ritual was the reason for them winning a game for their team? Probably not. No, their ritual or prayer didn't ever hurt them, and the superstitious mindset of the athlete might have helped him/her get into a better groove when they did their pregame ritual, but the outcome can't rationally be tied to their ritual no matter how you look at it. The way I see it, it's the same thing with prayers and sudden cures; just because you prayed didn't necessarily change the outcome.

With all that said I don't discount the occasional miraculous healing as possibly being supernatural in origin. But faith and prayer healing is, in my opinion, very overblown and there is little to no reason to consider most of the stories about them today to be valid. But I had to point out that from Cubeus's perspective, if you want an evidence-based way to prove some medical cases as supernatural, you aren't going to find much of a limb to stand on.