Trying to understand... Grace!!!

[zacchaeus]

I tend to believe that God will never punish you for your sins today because He has already punished them all in Jesus' body 2,000 years ago! Jesus knew no sin but became sin for you, so that He could give you His righteousness and make you the righteousness of God in Him! I suppose now comes my loaded questions as I've been coming unto the knowledge of true grace and trying to understand it...

My questions:
Partial obedience is disobedience, which falls under rebellion- also SiN; yet Jesus died for that too... where does this leave us?
Are we still unworthy or worthless/undeserving after coming unto Christ? Are we not to live a victorious life in Jesus putting on His righteousness, then are we worthy?
I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?

Its like speeding super fact and when the cop pulls you over he hands you a ticket already paid, an eternal free pass for all future infractions, and a lump some of cash cause it seems the one who paid for you overpaid!!!

Side note: You build a church in Nairobi-a man wants to join but has 5 wives and 3-5 children with each wife. What do you do as pastor?
Does grace cover looking away? Grace- Don't compromise the Word-love the ones who have!!!

[PaulSacramento]

I guess the first thing is to sate WHICH sin(s) Jesus died for?
Was His sacrifice for all we have done and will do?
Was it an atonement for the "original sin" of separation from God so that we may be reconciled with God through Christ?
I do NOT believe that God's grace is given as forgiveness of all we have done AND will do, unless you mean IF we repent.
I think it is important, IMO, to understand that no gift can be forced on anyone and that Grace, like any other gift, must be received.
IF Grace is given freely than it can be rejected freely, if not then it is forced upon those that do know want it.

I think it is important to repent when we sin ( and we all sin) and not to think that because you have asked forgiveness for a sin in the past that you are somehow excused from repenting if you commit it ( or any other sin) in the future.

[jlay]

Paul,

That doesn't sound like Grace at all. That sounds like some sort of conditional contract.
"There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus,"... if they repent each time they sin, and mean it of course....,oh and feel the proper sorrow, and mean it...., Amen??
In one sense, I agree we must willingly receive a gift. That is, if we are going to appropriate it. However, a gift isn't a gift at all if it is conditioned in ANY way in something you MUST contribute. That is a wage.
But we don't have to willingly receive a gift. For example, I could buy you a gift, and offer it. Your willingness to accept the gift has nothing to do with what the giver has already done. The giver has made up their mind, that they are giving the gift. It is offered to you freely whether you accept or not. It's yours, no strings attached. You don't have to come and mow my yard. You don't have to be my best friend. The gift is offered, not based on who you are, or what you have done. Not even on what you might or might not do for me in the future. You simply have to willingly receive.
The giver is gracious.
I have an underprivileged family we work with, and have for several years. My wife and I love to help them. Recently it came to my attention that they were having problems paying the utilities. So, we went and paid their outstanding bill, plus the upcoming month. We didn't require them to pledge anything to us. We didn't say, "we'll only do this if....." No, that IS NOT Grace. That is a contract.

Yet, just in the other locked thread, this picture of grace is mocked. People would rather have it that God's grace is fickle and conditional.

As we've over so many times, your use of repent is confusing. Please define.
If, as you say, we have to ask forgiveness each time we sin, then is God still deciding what to do about the sin problem?

There was a Dennis the Mennis cartoon, where he and a friend are pictured coming out of Ms. Wilson's house with an armful of cookies. "The friend says, "Wow, I wonder what we did to deserve these cookies. We must have been really good." Dennis says, "It's not because we're good, it's because Ms. Wilson's good."

Oh, if we could only grasp the grace of God.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,

That doesn't sound like Grace at all. That sounds like some sort of conditional contract.
"There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus,"... if they repent each time they sin, and mean it of course....,oh and feel the proper sorrow, and mean it...., Amen??
In one sense, I agree we must willingly receive a gift. That is, if we are going to appropriate it. However, a gift isn't a gift at all if it is conditioned in ANY way in something you MUST contribute. That is a wage.
But we don't have to willingly receive a gift. For example, I could buy you a gift, and offer it. Your willingness to accept the gift has nothing to do with what the giver has already done. The giver has made up their mind, that they are giving the gift. It is offered to you freely whether you accept or not. It's yours, no strings attached. You don't have to come and mow my yard. You don't have to be my best friend. The gift is offered, not based on who you are, or what you have done. Not even on what you might or might not do for me in the future. You simply have to willingly receive.
The giver is gracious.
I have an underprivileged family we work with, and have for several years. My wife and I love to help them. Recently it came to my attention that they were having problems paying the utilities. So, we went and paid their outstanding bill, plus the upcoming month. We didn't require them to pledge anything to us. We didn't say, "we'll only do this if....." No, that IS NOT Grace. That is a contract.

Yet, just in the other locked thread, this picture of grace is mocked. People would rather have it that God's grace is fickle and conditional.

As we've over so many times, your use of repent is confusing. Please define.
If, as you say, we have to ask forgiveness each time we sin, then is God still deciding what to do about the sin problem?

There was a Dennis the Mennis cartoon, where he and a friend are pictured coming out of Ms. Wilson's house with an armful of cookies. "The friend says, "Wow, I wonder what we did to deserve these cookies. We must have been really good." Dennis says, "It's not because we're good, it's because Ms. Wilson's good."

Oh, if we could only grasp the grace of God.

Can Grace be forced upon anyone? No.
Does Grace mean you are free to sin and to no repent? No.
God doesn't put conditions on Grace, WE do.
As fallen humans we put those conditions ( for lack of a better word) because we can't be sinless, even under grace.
God gives us grace freely because of what His Son DID, not what we do.
It is what we do WITH His grace that seems to be an issue.
Do we have to accept it? Well, if we don't then how are we under His grace since we are free to reject it?
If we can reject it then that means it truly is a gift.
If we were in a perfect state with God when we would be under His grace and sin more more and have no need to ask for repentance BUT the fact is that even under His grace we sin and since we sin ( even under Grace) we MUST repent.

[Jac3510]

Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that the act of receiving grace is turning from sin; that is, turning from sin ("repenting," as you seem to be using the word) is the means by which we receive grace.

Am I hearing you correctly?

[Silvertusk]

As we all are at the moment - lets keep this thread civil and not get it locked as I am really interested where this discussion is going. This is certainly an area where friendly debate can be useful.

Just to throw my thoughts into the mix - I am of the belief that we are saved by grace - but if we then carry on sinning without repentance then we are not truly saved as that kind of indicates that you do not truly accept the gift of salvation. I believe that we are purified in stages and we sin less and less as we go on our Christian journey - I think it is called santification (please correct me if I wrong). If we are heading in the right direction then we are still under grace. If we turn apostolate then we are no longer under grace and we are sort of rejecting God's gift.

Silvertusk.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that the act of receiving grace is turning from sin; that is, turning from sin ("repenting," as you seem to be using the word) is the means by which we receive grace.

Am I hearing you correctly?

Oh no, I was addressing this part of the OP:

Partial obedience is disobedience, which falls under rebellion- also SiN; yet Jesus died for that too... where does this leave us?
Are we still unworthy or worthless/undeserving after coming unto Christ? Are we not to live a victorious life in Jesus putting on His righteousness, then are we worthy?
I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?

I don't think that just because a person is under grace that they are free to sin ( obviously) or if they sin that they do NOT have to repent because of Grace.

I think that when we accept Christ and realize we are under His Grace, that the consious understanding of repentance and what it means "kicks in".
I don't think we can do the "chicken or the egg" thing with grace and repentance ( do we repent and then are under grace or are we under grace and repent because of it, or...)
I think that God's grace is given freely to us ALL, for Christ died for us ALL BUT I also think that our realization of being under His grac4e should compell us to repent and to understand the true blessing of Grace.
I dont' think we NEED to do that to be under His grace, Christ's sacrific is enough for that BUT I do think that because we are human, with the understanding of grace comes repentance, not because we "have to" but because we "want" to.

[PaulSacramento]

BTW, I don;'t think repentance is JUST turning from sin but also a self-awareness of SIN and all that goes with it, which is why for some repentance is such a scary thing and not something they are willing to do.

[jlay]

Repentance isnt turning from sin at all. There is NOTHING inherent in the word metanoia that has to do with sin. This is a myth of religion.

[Jac3510]

Oh no, I was addressing this part of the OP:

I was actually referring to your reply to jlay, where you said:

Can Grace be forced upon anyone? No.
Does Grace mean you are free to sin and to no repent? No.
God doesn't put conditions on Grace, WE do.
As fallen humans we put those conditions ( for lack of a better word) because we can't be sinless, even under grace.
God gives us grace freely because of what His Son DID, not what we do.
It is what we do WITH His grace that seems to be an issue.
Do we have to accept it? Well, if we don't then how are we under His grace since we are free to reject it?
If we can reject it then that means it truly is a gift.
If we were in a perfect state with God when we would be under His grace and sin more more and have no need to ask for repentance BUT the fact is that even under His grace we sin and since we sin ( even under Grace) we MUST repent.

You seem to be arguing here that since grace must be received freely and since grace does not give us license to sin (both statements j and I would agree with), turning from sin (which you call repentance, although you've now further added to it a broad idea of having "a self-awareness of SIN and all that goes with it") is a condition WE put on grace.

I'm just trying to figure out what you wrote. You said, "God doesn't put conditions on Grace, WE do." Now, I don't really even know what that means. I'm trying to figure out what conditions you think we put on grace. Since you go and talk about "those conditions" with respect to our sin and with our need to repent of it, then it seems that you are saying that turning from sin is a condition we put on [receiving?] grace.

In light of that, you've now said:

I don't think that just because a person is under grace that they are free to sin ( obviously) or if they sin that they do NOT have to repent because of Grace.

I think that when we accept Christ and realize we are under His Grace, that the consious understanding of repentance and what it means "kicks in".
I don't think we can do the "chicken or the egg" thing with grace and repentance ( do we repent and then are under grace or are we under grace and repent because of it, or...)
I think that God's grace is given freely to us ALL, for Christ died for us ALL BUT I also think that our realization of being under His grac4e should compell us to repent and to understand the true blessing of Grace.
I dont' think we NEED to do that to be under His grace, Christ's sacrific is enough for that BUT I do think that because we are human, with the understanding of grace comes repentance, not because we "have to" but because we "want" to.

Concerning the first sentence, I don't know anyone who would say that we are free to sin or that we don't have to repent. What we might disagree on is the definition of repent and in what sense we must do it--that is, what the consequences would be if we fail to do so.

Concerning your last sentence, I don't think anyone would object to saying that realizing we are under grace should compel us to repent (whatever you mean by that). What we might dispute is whether or not all who are under sin will necessarily repent, and if they don't whether or not they are still under grace.

So all in all, I think you should clarify three issues:

1. The definition of repentance, since Jlay has rightly pointed out that the word does NOT mean "turn from sin," and, in fact, has no necessary connection with sin at all. Unless we are using words the same way, we can't exactly have a proper conversation, can we?
2. The means by which we receive grace.
3. What, in your view, happens when someone who has received grace fails to repent (or, indeed, if in your view that is even possible).

[Jac3510]

As to my own take on the OP

My questions:
Partial obedience is disobedience, which falls under rebellion- also SiN; yet Jesus died for that too... where does this leave us?
Are we still unworthy or worthless/undeserving after coming unto Christ? Are we not to live a victorious life in Jesus putting on His righteousness, then are we worthy?
I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?

We are always unworthy and undeserving of Christ's grace. We do not live a victorious life because we, having received grace, are suddenly good enough to do so. To be simplistic, life isn't like a video game where salvation is a "power-up" that gives you a special ability to be worthy of Jesus, as if all we needed was a little help here and there. I LOVE what Miles Stanford said on this:

• For most of us, it is time to stop asking God for help. He didn't help us to be saved, and He doesn't intend to help us live the Christian life. Immaturity considers the Lord Jesus a Helper. Maturity knows Him to be Life itself. J. E. Conant wrote, "Christian living is not our living with Christ's help, it is Christ living His life in us. Therefore that portion of our service that is not His doing is not Christian service; for all such life and service have but a human and natural source, and Christian life and service have a supernatural and spiritual source." Paul insisted, "For to me to live is Christ"l and, "I can do all things through Christ" (Phil. 1:21; 4:13a). (Miles Stanford, The Complete Green Letters (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983), 65)

When you try to live the Christian life on our own power--even if you think you are doing it through some special power God gave you in Christ--then you are trying to live by the flesh. Jesus is not a cheerleader, "YOU CAN DO IT YOU CAN DO IT PUT A LITTLE POWER TO IT!" and you are not the little engine that could, "I THINK I CAN I THINK I CAN I THINK I CAN!" Rather, Jesus is the bearer of bad news, "YOU CAN'T DO IT! STOP TRYING!" so that He can be the bearer of Good News, "I'LL DO IT FOR YOU! JUST STOP TRYING! LET ME DO IT FOR YOU!"

Whenever you sin, there is ALWAYS the same root cause: you trying to do it yourself. If you are trusting in Christ, it is impossible to sin. He will live in you at each moment. It's when you stop trusting Christ, when you stop abiding in Him, that you start sinning. And when you stop trusting in Christ, you need to repent, not to regain grace. You already have that. You repent because you already do have grace. You repent--that is, you change your mind about what you were doing; you now see it Christ's way instead of yours--and then your fellowship with Him is restored. That fellowship enables Him to begin to live in and through you again.

I mean, take one silly little example. Let's say someone cuts you off while you are driving down the road. Your anger flairs up, not only because of the indignity of it all, but because you are already running late and that person is going to slow you down. Their selfishness might cost you time at work, it might make your boss mad at you . . . and if nothing else, now you have to deal with the inconvenience. So what do you do? You lash out and honk the horn. You get your little revenge and at the first change you get you pass him as fast as you can.

In short, you sin. You looked at the whole thing from your fallen, sinful perspective. What if as soon as that happen and you felt your anger flair up, you said, "Wait, Jesus. You knew this was going to happen, didn't You? So Jesus, as much as this makes me angry, I'm going to leave it to You. You know about inconvenience this will cause me. I'm leaving all that in Your hands. You take care of it, because you know what the day will bring much better than I do." If THAT were your attitude--just leave it to Jesus--besides doing wonders for your blood pressure, what do you think Jesus will do? Just what He promised. He'll live in and through you. And you'll just be amazed how how He takes care of everything. And if you did that every day with EVERYTHING, imagine the kind of person you would be -- a loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, self-controlled person, wouldn't you be? Sound familiar? It's when you stop trusting Jesus and take life into your own hands that you become angry and bitter and jealous and everything else that comes with the flesh.

Sin, then, does not nullify what Jesus did on the Cross. Sin is the outworking of our failure to trust Jesus daily--not only for our salvation, but with each and every moment of life. Sin is a symptom of a disease, not the cause. That's why you can't really repent from sin. That's why no amount of promising to "be better" will do any good. You may as well promise your doctor that you'll stop having headaches and getting fevers without treating the underlying illness. The real problem is whether or not you trust Christ. And when you do THAT, then stand back and be amazed at the grace of God as it flows through you into the lives of the people that you love (which, by the way, would even include that guy that cut you off!).

[PaulSacramento]

So all in all, I think you should clarify three issues:

I am here to serve

1. The definition of repentance, since Jlay has rightly pointed out that the word does NOT mean "turn from sin," and, in fact, has no necessary connection with sin at all. Unless we are using words the same way, we can't exactly have a proper conversation, can we?

To repent is to understand and acknowledge our sins AND their consequences on those who we have sinned against, to make amends by asking forgiveness from God and to bear full weight of the consequences of those sins.

2. The means by which we receive grace.

Acceptance of Christ as Our Lord and Saviour.

3. What, in your view, happens when someone who has received grace fails to repent (or, indeed, if in your view that is even possible).

A really good question.
IMO, I don't think we can receive Christ's Grace without receiving Christ and if we receive Christ and the HS, then we come "face first" with the realization of our sins and how we have wronged God and others. I don't know if it is possible to receive Christ truly and be sealed by the HS without the acknowledge meant of our sins and our need to repent.

[Silvertusk]

I think I am Kinda with Paul on this one. That seems about right to me.

[RickD]

Paul and Silvertusk, Jac is going to explain why your definition of repent(metanoia) isn't accurate. The meaning you are using has been changed from its original meaning, in Greek, at the time scripture was written. I could attempt to explain it, but Jac has a much better understanding, and he can convey it better. Until I looked into it myself, I would've argued for the meaning you're using. It's proper meaning is much more consistently biblical, IMHO.

[Jac3510]

Paul and Silvertusk, Jac is going to explain why your definition of repent(metanoia) isn't accurate.

I could, but I'm actually going to defer to jlay here. He tends to be a bit more laconic than I on such things, and I've always found his comments on this particular issue particularly helpful. And, of course, I agree with his position entirely. In the meantime, I'll steal a bit of his thunder before he goes about it and refer you to Michael Cocoris' Repentance: The Most Misunderstood Word in the Bible. It's long, but worth every minute you spend on it.

Cocoris' conclusion, though, is as follows:

• Repent is the most misunderstood word in the Bible. Definitions include, changing one’s mind, feeling sorrow for sin, ceasing to sin and even doing acts of penance. Then, there is the problem of the relation of repentance to faith. Does repentance come before, with or after faith? No wonder there is so much confusion. In the New Testament, the Greek words “repent” and “repentance” mean, “to change one’s mind.” The object of what people are changing their minds about is determined by the context. The message of repentance is preached to unbelievers and believers.

(You know you were going to link to that, j. Go ahead and admit it!)