Trying to understand... Grace!!!

[Kurieuo]

Paul and Silvertusk, Jac is going to explain why your definition of repent(metanoia) isn't accurate.

I could, but I'm actually going to defer to jlay here. He tends to be a bit more laconic than I on such things, and I've always found his comments on this particular issue particularly helpful. And, of course, I agree with his position entirely. In the meantime, I'll steal a bit of his thunder before he goes about it and refer you to Michael Cocoris' Repentance: The Most Misunderstood Word in the Bible. It's long, but worth every minute you spend on it.

Cocoris' conclusion, though, is as follows:

• Repent is the most misunderstood word in the Bible. Definitions include, changing one’s mind, feeling sorrow for sin, ceasing to sin and even doing acts of penance. Then, there is the problem of the relation of repentance to faith. Does repentance come before, with or after faith? No wonder there is so much confusion. In the New Testament, the Greek words “repent” and “repentance” mean, “to change one’s mind.” The object of what people are changing their minds about is determined by the context. The message of repentance is preached to unbelievers and believers.

(You know you were going to link to that, j. Go ahead and admit it!)

It's never sat right when someone says to to come to Christ, repent from your sins asking for forgiveness then go sin no more.

I've always seen repentance as something just automatic when one comes to faith in Christ. It's good to have yours and Jlay's insights here.

[zacchaeus]

It's never sat right when someone says to to come to Christ, repent from your sins asking for forgiveness then go sin no more.

I understand what your saying... funny though that Jesus had of theme to tell people to go and sin no more!!! Should we turn and go back to Egypt or continue through the wilderness?

God promised that "in the day" Adam and Eve ate from the tree, that they would die. According to Scripture they lived long after, although they were "separated from God" in that day and tossed out of paradise.

Was this an attempt to answer the punishment of sin or maybe the effect or affect?

I can't find the quote but there was a small futile attempt I believe, earnest in manner to answer my question of worthiness and victory? I should expound...
I am already full aware that all this will and does tie back into the forms of salvation Eternal vs. Questionable, but I think GRACE is the key to almost everything if we could simply understand. God sees us of value to execute His will... although it is He that performs good works in us, and the HS guiding us, so why would we be sealed, guided, led by Himself if unworthy? This is why I asked are we worthy after coming to Christ?

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling"

When we say we are unworthy, I'm reminded... "... Jesus heard it, He marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." (Matthew 8:5-10 KJV)"

Evil doesn't pray, they do prey... Worthy people don't love their fellow man less than they possibly can; they just always love God more.

[zacchaeus]

This thread is clearly about the relationship between Grace and sin...

OP questions:
Still...
I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?

Side note: You build a church in Nairobi-a man wants to join but has 5 wives and 3-5 children with each wife. What do you do as pastor?
Does grace cover looking away? Grace- Don't compromise the Word-love the ones who have!!!

[Kurieuo]

It's never sat right when someone says to to come to Christ, repent from your sins asking for forgiveness then go sin no more.

I understand what your saying... funny though that Jesus had of theme to tell people to go and sin no more!!! Should we turn and go back to Egypt or continue through the wilderness?

Yes, otherwise next time the woman caught in adultery might be stoned. So from a practical point of view, in context, it makes sense for her to stop now she was found out.

And yet, when it is said by a fellow Christian within the church, it is more than often said as though we can now be perfect... but as everyone on this board appears to admit -- we continue struggling with sin until the day we die.

God promised that "in the day" Adam and Eve ate from the tree, that they would die. According to Scripture they lived long after, although they were "separated from God" in that day and tossed out of paradise.

Was this an attempt to answer the punishment of sin or maybe the effect or affect?

Yes, the affect. My thoughts...

Logically, I see that the reason we need to be "born again" spiritually is because we have been spiritually stillborn since Adam & Eve... the "spiritual" prior to Christ, was taken care of by a select few (priests) to approach God on Israel's behalf. We no longer need priests to make supplication to God on our behalf, because we have direct access to Christ who was the final priest and offering.

Christ suffered both -- physical death obviously, but also being forsaken in His divinity on the cross.

We still suffer physical death because a) this world serves a temporary purpose; and b) it is necessary for our resurrection into the new life.

[zacchaeus]

Didn't Jesus die in our place, already taken that death for us so we wouldn't have to die- yet we die? and aren't we in the new life already, now we merely just go to sleep?
"... Lazarus is sleeping", "..."She is not dead but asleep." Isn't the World meant to be inhabited and the new heaven be on earth? I know I'm going off subject somewhat!

Is sin dead? are we dead to sin? why then do we still feel condemnation and unworthiness when we do sin?

[Kurieuo]

Didn't Jesus die in our place, already taken that death for us so we wouldn't have to die- yet we die? and aren't we in the new life already, now we merely just go to sleep?
"... Lazarus is sleeping", "..."She is not dead but asleep." Isn't the World meant to be inhabited and the new heaven be on earth? I know I'm going off subject somewhat!

Is sin dead? are we dead to sin? why then do we still feel condemnation and unworthiness when we do sin?

What are your initial thoughts if you were to respond to your questions?

[zacchaeus]

To be honest I'm not quite sure... I've of recent been in a season of Grace, learning, stretching- spiritual growing pains. I have many thoughts, I've been hooked on phonics with systematic theology, and I was raised super legalistic!!! I've been studying Hyper-grace and the liberty and freedom of its amazing. My questions stem from self experience. I will expound later with my best efforts of my understanding. I was prophesied over two years ago and just reread it this past weekend, with prayer and careful consideration- I've seen revelation, I've noticed certain things, and I have a deeper understanding. God has and is def doing things in a new way and light, as He always has... not necessarily new to Him, but new to us. Things thats always been there that we are just now coming unto the wisdom of- new revelation to us. As for now, bedtime!!!

[Kurieuo]

To be honest I'm not quite sure... I've of recent been in a season of Grace, learning, stretching- spiritual growing pains. I have many thoughts, I've been hooked on phonics with systematic theology, and I was raised super legalistic!!! I've been studying Hyper-grace and the liberty and freedom of its amazing. My questions stem from self experience. I will expound later with my best efforts of my understanding. I was prophesied over two years ago and just reread it this past weekend, with prayer and careful consideration- I've seen revelation, I've noticed certain things, and I have a deeper understanding. God has and is def doing things in a new way and light, as He always has... not necessarily new to Him, but new to us. Things thats always been there that we are just now coming unto the wisdom of- new revelation to us. As for now, bedtime!!!

Sounds great. I remember the first time the penny dropped and I truly understood God's grace. Martin Lloyd-Jones was was largely responsible as I read through his multi-volume commentary on Romans... hairs stood up on my back like I had attained a new enlightenment.

Definitely a life changer, and gave so much understanding to the religious language often used in Christianity without really thinking about what it means.

Pray you all the best in your spiritual growth.

[Gman]

I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?

I think you are making it too hard... We repent whenever we sin which will happen various times in our lives.. Why? Because of Christ's work on the cross. That is why we obey and try to stop sin in our lives. One day when Christ comes back, we will be perfect as He is perfect. Until then, we do our best to follow His commandments.

[B. W.]

zacchaeus, Regarding Grace and sin that this topic as advanced into; Let me just say... Sin ruins your life. But now, as a Christian, sin is a choice as Titus 2:11 NIV Titus 2:12 NIV says. Sin is a lifestyle for a non-believer. Therefore, it is a lifestyle that takes time, for a believer in Christ to unlearn.

Grace works like this: You choose to sin and it is a habit. You go to God 70 x 70 times a day for this one sin in accordance to the principle fund 1 John 1:9…

Guess what - Grace teaches you to say NO to what?

How so?

Sort of like this: The Lord, speaks to your soul and says, “How’s it working for you?”

You respond, “Not so Good – this sin… I am so weary of doing it over and over again..”

He says to you, “So, Are you tired of eating quail, yet?”

You answer, “I get it, I can resist temptation by your Grace that taught me that eating too much quail makes ya sick – I don’t have too. I get it – Eureka!”

Guess what happens? That habitual sin vanishes and by God’s grace you master over it (in due time) because Grace taught you that you can say NO to it by the 1 John 1:9 way. Once you catch on, it gets easier and a new crop of sin get’s easier to resist.

This is termed sanctification. The Holy Spirit is at work with this work in you and me. As a Believer, You are sealed by God and are saved and belong to him. An adopted child of God.

Let me change direction and speak on Grace a bit:

Next, the issue many have with Grace is that people do not get that there are three types of Grace. What do I mean? Well let me define them for you:

First, there is Rasputin Grace. This type of Grace is greasy – it dictates that you can’t know God’s forgiveness unless you really sin – so go ahead sin that Grace can abound for you. This is deadly and all error too. This is playing God a fool. It is counterfeit grace. It abuses God’s grace. God is not mocked, what one sows they will also reap. Many folk confuse Free Gracer's with these Rasputin Gracer's. They think the Free Grace Folks teach Rasputin Grace. Free Grace folk do not teach Rasputin Grace at all. Not understanding this. Leads to endless debates and locking of horns in strife. I see this often on this very forum.

Secondly, there is Legalistic Grace. This kind of Grace is legalistic and best summed up as you are saved by God’s Grace alone but you got to work really hard to keep yourself saved. Legalist Grace kills faith and ruins lives and makes you miserable and the devil mighty happy. This kind of Grace is grave error and needs to be avoided. That is why so many attacks those who are not legalistic gracers when they perceive any kind of works mentioned at all. Keen discernment is needed to discern who is what. Well meaning folk often read into anyone who says that they love God in demonstration of keeping his word the 1 John 1:9 way or obeying God by what the word says. They accuse such of legalistic grace. This is not so because they are truly happy folk – until the heresy hunters come along. Lots of big fighting debates needlessly occur. As for true Legalistic Grace, such makes one’s life miserable and a roaring holier than thou nitpicker seeking nits under every bush to pick a fight with. You know the type - True legalist are easy to spot.

Thirdly, there is Radical Life altering Grace. This kind of Grace, is what changes lives and heals the broken heart, sets at liberty those in Bondage, and give the oil of joy in exchange for heaviness. It is what Christ did upon that Cross and its effect upon your soul. It changes the direction of your life out of darkness into light and is the rudder that stears you to that light of life God has for you. It’s free. Just Believe. It is easy. It works the Titus 2:11-15 and 1 John 1:9 way in the life of a believer all because of what Jesus did alone. We can’t add to it – only accept it.

This radical grace makes the heart desire to obey God and walk according the very character of Christ Jesus as the bible tells us too. It produces love it the heart because you are set free from so much. This kind of Grace gets you thru God’s woodshed faster (chastening/correction). You know that you are loved, accepted, by God. You smile a lot. You learn to sin less than you did the day before, every day, till you meet him in heaven and never do so again.

There is great truth in the legal aspect of the Cross. However, that glorious truth is way over balanced at the exclusion of the liberating Grace wrought upon the cross by God’s great Love. The Cross, for many involves only legal technicalities and the John 3:16 part about love is missed. You cannot define God’s love based solely on legal technicalities.

The Roman Road approach in evangelism, as good as it is, is like going into battle with one boot on. Without the Love part - that road lacks - punch. Rather difficult for an unsaved person to understand what a one shoe person is talking about. They see you are missing something and may even pray the prayer just to be rid of you because of politeness.

Therefore, let me share with you how I present the Cross when I preach and travel, as I just did this past week in several Churches, so you get an idea how radical God’s grace is toward us, who don’t deserve it at all.

So….

…Have you ever seen a little child run to parent with outstretched arms wide and the parent likewise reaches for the child with arms outstretched wide/wide? The smile and the longing of both to embrace: That’s Love.

For God so loved the world that he gave…

You understand that God loved you that much? So much that he hung upon a cross in a hugging position. We put him on that cross. We drove the nails into his hand/feet so he can’t hug us. He died in that hugging position. Do you realize this?

It is we who mocked, abused, beat, scorned, spat, put on trial, plotted against, whipped, bore false witness against Him who came to hug us. And Jesus did say, when you done it to the least of these my brethren, you done it to me. So, who have we mocked, abused, beat, scorned, spat, put on trial, and plotted against, whipped, lied about, schemed, bore false witness against?

Our sins kept God’s hug away.

What did He do? Rose from the dead after paying that death penalty for our nailings, so that he can now Hug us…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal (new) life…

In God’s embrace… John 10:28

We did not deserve this divine hug due to our nails and that crown of thorns… But He still came to show us, upon himself, our sin. Why? So we can return to him as his adopted child with outstretched arms to feel his warm embrace of Grace again. Welcome home my child, I love you that much. (Now stretch out your arms).

That’s Radical Grace. It affects you in ways that no human words can rightly explain.

I know some folk don’t like how I teach on the Cross. It doesn’t matter to me. I know I am loved and by whom. Be blest my friends…changed forever by the cross and the hug of God.

Romans 10:9

B. W. Melvin
Author/Speaker
A Land Unknown: Hell’s Dominion
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[zacchaeus]

B.W.ow!!!

[zacchaeus]

zacchaeus wrote:I find it hard to understand the effects of sin "if" null and void by what Jesus did on the cross and how guilt and condemnation come in play in the equation?
Or Repentance and forgiveness? How many times do we need or have to repent, don't we repent ONCE, aren't we forgiven ONCE?



I think you are making it too hard... We repent whenever we sin which will happen various times in our lives.. Why? Because of Christ's work on the cross. That is why we obey and try to stop sin in our lives. One day when Christ comes back, we will be perfect as He is perfect. Until then, we do our best to follow His commandments.

I understand fully, I worded it the way I did for good reason- mainly to see the responses. However, my question is when we change our mind about sin and Christ (repenting), how many times do we need to change our mind!!! By definition we should only change our mind once, meaning we changed our mind to believe The Christ- Jesus, that He died for our sins, and that He Resurrected!!! We come unto the realization that sin is unhealthy, especially in our relationship with Christ. Yet, we still sin... however, while sinning (not that we always want to Rom 7) we still are in a state of repentance, that is to still believe all of the above. So, the confusion comes in the fact that if we repent again it would only mean to change our mind in which case the opposite would be to no longer believe, and no longer care about the effects of sin. I hope that makes sense.

[zacchaeus]

Being an extremist and preaching Torah, I've been on this side before from those who've known me through my journey on this page. My issue is simple, maybe non-essential, I'd hope it hold merit- Many cop-out and depend on grace so much they become tolerant of everything. They're "super-nice" people who allow others to remain dead in their sins for fear of offending them. Many preach Truth with an iron-fist so much they either self-righteously judge others or piteously condemn themselves in an attempt to earn God's pleasure. Grace without truth is cheap. Truth without grace is harsh. Both extremes are ineffectual. Where is the balance?

[Gman]

I understand fully, I worded it the way I did for good reason- mainly to see the responses. However, my question is when we change our mind about sin and Christ (repenting), how many times do we need to change our mind!!! By definition we should only change our mind once, meaning we changed our mind to believe The Christ- Jesus, that He died for our sins, and that He Resurrected!!! We come unto the realization that sin is unhealthy, especially in our relationship with Christ. Yet, we still sin... however, while sinning (not that we always want to Rom 7) we still are in a state of repentance, that is to still believe all of the above. So, the confusion comes in the fact that if we repent again it would only mean to change our mind in which case the opposite would be to no longer believe, and no longer care about the effects of sin. I hope that makes sense.

Zacc.. How many times do you need to change your mind? I would say often.. I still keep sinning and when I sin, I simply confess it or try to correct the problem. And I'm getting much better at it.. My personal belief on it is that it is very healthy to confess that you are wrong about something.. Be aware that many however are frightened of confessing sin..

Remember that we need to renew our minds back to G-d's word. And this is what sets you free.. And witness G-d's grace when we do sin and lean on Him for our direction.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Gman]

Being an extremist and preaching Torah, I've been on this side before from those who've known me through my journey on this page. My issue is simple, maybe non-essential, I'd hope it hold merit- Many cop-out and depend on grace so much they become tolerant of everything. They're "super-nice" people who allow others to remain dead in their sins for fear of offending them. Many preach Truth with an iron-fist so much they either self-righteously judge others or piteously condemn themselves in an attempt to earn God's pleasure. Grace without truth is cheap. Truth without grace is harsh. Both extremes are ineffectual. Where is the balance?

Zacc... We repent when we see the magnitude of G-d's love and grace for us.. We do it not to merit salvation or get brownie points, we repent and obey Him because G-d is an AWESOME G-d!! We are not worthy of His grace, but He loves us anyway despite the many many sins we do against Him and our neighbor. The more you see your sins the more you see His grace.. But we don't sin to achieve that..

We should always be testing ourselves as the Bible clearly states. But that doesn't mean that we beat ourselves up either..

2 Corinthians 13:5-6, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you —unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Galatians 6:3-5 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load.

The truth is that we are not trying to achieve a "good" image of ourselves, rather an "accurate" image of ourselves. A truthful image..