Prayers needed for a apologist friend of mine

[DRDS]

Hey everyone, a good friend of mine who is on facebook who is a somewhat well known apologist but not really in the spotlight much is needing prayer. For the past sometime I think it's been over a year or so he has been dealing with constant attacks from Muslims.

In fact where he used to teach at, I think some muslim students got him into trouble somehow and them and their muslim organization has taken him to court,has sued him, made him resign from his teaching position and has brought him a lot of grief and has hurt his reputation.

But if that's not bad enough, he's starting to lose hope from what I've seen him as far as his fb posts go. I guess I don't think he's going to lose his faith or anything but he currently feels like regardless of his praying and him doing God's work, he feels right now that God has let him down and not answered his prayers to be delivered from the mess that he is in.

So if it's ok, please pray for him, his name is Paul, that's all I'll give as far as his name and such. And just pray that he will maintain his faith and that he will somehow be a help to other people in this type of situation and that he will find peace in this situation, and find out what the real purpose behind all of this.

Anyways, I thank you all for your time. GB

[neo-x]

He needs council, get him on here, and ask him to participate.

[DRDS]

Please keep praying for him you guys. He now almost acts like he's going to abandon his faith all together. And it looks like it's all over the good old problem of evil.

He stated a day or so ago that while reading the book of Job, he's now convinced that God intentionally causes evil to get whatever outcome He so wants. My friend saw this specifically in this section of Job...

"Then all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before, came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold" (v. 11).

My friend stressed that the verse shows that it wasn't satan that was charged with creating this evil. And it made him ask everyone the question, "why was it necessary that God resorted to evil-doing and what was the point?"

And then he finally ended his lamenting with these questions.

"If God is ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world, simply because he solely in charge of everything that happens in the world, then how is it really possible to "depart from evil" (Job 28:28) or to "overcome evil with good" (Rom. 12:21) when God is the one orchestrating it? Who is mighty enough to overthrow or resist God's will to permit evil to occur?"

So if it's ok, please keep him in your prayers that he doesn't de convert into atheism like so many people have these days. It's such a very very dark depressing view since I myself, have flirted with it many times. The dark angst, fear, and depression that goes with it is something I wouldn't want to wish on my very worst enemies. Also, if anyone knows of any good resources on the problem of evil that specifically addresses questions like his that I shown above, please let me know and I may try and send him that way.

Again, thank you all for your time. GB.

[neo-x]

"If God is ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world, simply because he solely in charge of everything that happens in the world, then how is it really possible to "depart from evil" (Job 28:28) or to "overcome evil with good" (Rom. 12:21) when God is the one orchestrating it? Who is mighty enough to overthrow or resist God's will to permit evil to occur?"

That is what happens when people stumble because they haven't met their own objections to the nature of events in the Bible. It has nothing to do with prayer.

I think you friend needs help and he needs to put these questions to other Christians. Blunt as it may sound, I am not going to pray for him, I don't think prayer helps in such matters. I do think if he is open to understand, he might get some answers, but going emotionally, like he is going right now, is going to end in him leaving faith.

[DRDS]

You might have a point. But I wonder where I can find the right resources that might help him in some way. But then again, if it's all emotion like it is with many of today's "new atheists" who say they used to be a believer I guess the only way prayer could work is to pray that God will work on his brain and his emotions to keep him from slipping into atheism or agnosticism.

Here is what he had to say earlier today....

"For Thou are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee" (Ps. 5:4).

If that is true, Lord, then please help me to understand why You find it necessary to use or orchestrate wickedness means to further a seemingly contradictory end. Please illuminate my mind how thousands of people around the world are now better off without an understanding of how spiritual cults and counterfeits operate since You compelled me to pull the site—You are in absolute control, are You not?

Please set me straight as to who You really are, that I may know what is meant by your stated aversion toward wickedness and evil and the continued revelation showing the connection between You and it (them)."

I guess the (them) he's referring to is the Muslims that have been harassing him and who basically led him to resign from his teaching position.

But anyways Neo, are you saying that when a person's emotions take over that even God can't help them? Are emotions that over powering of a thing?

[neo-x]

You might have a point. But I wonder where I can find the right resources that might help him in some way. But then again, if it's all emotion like it is with many of today's "new atheists" who say they used to be a believer I guess the only way prayer could work is to pray that God will work on his brain and his emotions to keep him from slipping into atheism or agnosticism.

He is slipping into a view of God that is based solely on the brute force bombardment of questions and allegations he might have had to defend.

But anyways Neo, are you saying that when a person's emotions take over that even God can't help them? Are emotions that over powering of a thing?

Yes I believe they are and I don't think God tinkers with them on our prayers or whims. To go against free rationale and will is to go against HIS very nature of being God. Its a gift given to us, to choose or reject as we may see fit.

Not being big on words here, I certainly sympathize with your friend but he reminded me of the parable of the seed and sower: Mt 13:20-21

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

He needs help and he needs council, prayers may protect him physically but they won't change the way he thinks, doubt is something he has to clear on his own. And untill he sits and understands his objections and the answers to it, I don't think prayers will be good enough.

[Silvertusk]

You might have a point. But I wonder where I can find the right resources that might help him in some way. But then again, if it's all emotion like it is with many of today's "new atheists" who say they used to be a believer I guess the only way prayer could work is to pray that God will work on his brain and his emotions to keep him from slipping into atheism or agnosticism.

He is slipping into a view of God that is based solely on the brute force bombardment of questions and allegations he might have had to defend.

But anyways Neo, are you saying that when a person's emotions take over that even God can't help them? Are emotions that over powering of a thing?

Yes I believe they are and I don't think God tinkers with them on our prayers or whims. To go against free rationale and will is to go against HIS very nature of being God. Its a gift given to us, to choose or reject as we may see fit.

Not being big on words here, I certainly sympathize with your friend but he reminded me of the parable of the seed and sower: Mt 13:20-21

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

He needs help and he needs council, prayers may protect him physically but they won't change the way he thinks, doubt is something he has to clear on his own. And untill he sits and understands his objections and the answers to it, I don't think prayers will be good enough.

Prayers will help Neo more than you can possibly imagine. You don't know how God will answer prayers - what he might set in motion - who he might prompt to come into DRDS friends life. What seeds might fall. So DRDS I will pray from your friend because God's providence is so unfathomable that we cannot begin to comprehend what plans he might have for your friend.

[neo-x]

Prayers will help Neo more than you can possibly imagine. You don't know how God will answer prayers - what he might set in motion - who he might prompt to come into DRDS friends life. What seeds might fall. So DRDS I will pray from your friend because God's providence is so unfathomable that we cannot begin to comprehend what plans he might have for your friend.

I am not saying that prayers are useless all the time, just that some matters can't be done with prayers alone. God does not changes someone mind because of prayer, because if he does than thats most unfair and God is unfair for not changing minds of those who rebel him and die in their sin. You go down Calvin's road on this one.

[Silvertusk]

Prayers will help Neo more than you can possibly imagine. You don't know how God will answer prayers - what he might set in motion - who he might prompt to come into DRDS friends life. What seeds might fall. So DRDS I will pray from your friend because God's providence is so unfathomable that we cannot begin to comprehend what plans he might have for your friend.

I am not saying that prayers are useless all the time, just that some matters can't be done with prayers alone. God does not changes someone mind because of prayer, because if he does than thats most unfair and God is unfair for not changing minds of those who rebel him and die in their sin. You go down Calvin's road on this one.

I am not saying God can change minds - but prayer is useful all the time. period.

[neo-x]

I am not saying God can change minds - but prayer is useful all the time. period.

If it doesn't change anything than its simply a good wish.

[Silvertusk]

I am not saying God can change minds - but prayer is useful all the time. period.

If it doesn't change anything than its simply a good wish.

How do you know it doesn't change anything?

[neo-x]

How do you know it doesn't change anything?

I really don't want to argue this but I guess we'll have to so...how do you know it does?

[Silvertusk]

Experience of answered prayer before and because the bible tells us God does. We just don't always know initially how and when he does.

[neo-x]

Quite true but to be honest my experience says that prayers are answered far less than most believe and if they had done something about it, they could have saved a prayer and some time. I am not saying that specifically for you or anyone but I think we rely on prayer a tad more than necessary. Prayers may move mountains, so to say, but I have yet to see a mind changed just because of prayer, especially if the said mind is troubled on intellectual and emotional grounds. We can all attest to the fact that prayers are important, I do too. But when and where, are the questions and I have personally come to believe that God, while listens to prayers offered, does not necessarily move his plans to accommodate ours. Good prayers, with noblest wishes, like peace for mankind and feed the hungry on our dinner table are just lines we make up to console our self of the fact that we lack the action and the commitment to make a change and thus we put it in prayer and send it to santa claus (God) so that he can add it to our prayer wishlist.

I stopped praying God long ago for God to help the poor and feed the hungry or take care of the orphan. God does not do that. If he did the world would be a better place, it isn't. I know that it is us who should be doing that. And it makes me want to hate myself for the fact that I know a person who is hungry but I'd rather let God deal with it. And offering up a prayer then is hypocrisy of the finest value. If you see something wrong, deal with it, God does not drop food from the sky, neither he repairs a brain because it is going "atheist". So while you can pray in all earnest and even love and care, that you are worried about the person whom you are praying for, God isn't going to do anything about him turning atheist. So down this road, if there is no action, you are wasting your time. And in this scenario if there is prayer and action, you could do equally with action too.

Some things need action, no prayer. Just the will to carry out what is right.

While this is irrelevant to the situation in question, this is my approach towards prayer now. I only pray when I know its useless to do any action. Because I hope that God takes things in his own hands, my personal experience is, he usually doesn't. I don't hold that against him. I understand that he does not have to either.

[Silvertusk]

But you said it yourself prayer and action. Do them both. Don't deny one for the other. Even if it is just the case of asking God to give you the strength to do the action. They are not mutually exclusive. You also said that you pray if action won't do any good. In most cases very few people can be turned from apostolating through the actions of well meaning friends so why not just pray.