Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Silvertusk
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Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Silvertusk »

Can't believe Cameron didn't want this amendment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14745675

And it makes me sick to the core that you can still abort at 24 weeks. We met someone at party the other day whose daughter was born at 25 weeks and is perfectly healthy.

If ever we needed God it is now - where a developed country still believes it is ok for us to murder babies. Everytime I look at my own daughter my heart breaks for the ones that don't make it because society think it is alright for us to murder the innocent.

:crying:

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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by DannyM »

The pregnant woman should seek (and be provided) proper counselling before making such a decision. This is bloody obvious. Going to an abortion provider like Marie Stopes for advice is like a turkey going to Bernard Matthews and saying he feels suicidal!

How shameful, yet highly predictable, that Dorries’ right and proper amendment was so heavily defeated.

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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Murray »

I really hope perry's womens right to know bill passes in texas, it would save so many lives. Maybe as president he could even pass a federal right to know act, oh that would be awsome
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by kerachery »

What does the Church say about someone who supports an abortion? What do various churches, especially the Catholic Church, say about someone who supports another person's decision to have an abortion? Even though an individual may not have the abortion, there is still acceptance of that sin by being there for the person going through it - enabling them to go through with the abortion.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Silvertusk »

kerachery wrote:What does the Church say about someone who supports an abortion? What do various churches, especially the Catholic Church, say about someone who supports another person's decision to have an abortion? Even though an individual may not have the abortion, there is still acceptance of that sin by being there for the person going through it - enabling them to go through with the abortion.

Welcome to the board Kerachey.

You already answered your own question there. Condoning murder is a sin - Murder in the mind even though is not actually commited is a sin - Jesus taught us that in the Beatitudes. A sin that needs to be repented of - as all other sins do.

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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by CallMeDave »

Silvertusk wrote:Can't believe Cameron didn't want this amendment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14745675

And it makes me sick to the core that you can still abort at 24 weeks. We met someone at party the other day whose daughter was born at 25 weeks and is perfectly healthy.

If ever we needed God it is now - where a developed country still believes it is ok for us to murder babies. Everytime I look at my own daughter my heart breaks for the ones that don't make it because society think it is alright for us to murder the innocent.

:crying:

Silvertusk.

It cant be bigger than the USA at approx. 4,000 daily walk in abortions from the direct cause of sexual hedonism gone further wrong (95% of ALL abortions performed) . If we as a nation become any more desensitized to human life regardless of its growth stage , Abortion Mills will be offering driveup window service during a 'Mothers' lunch hour to keep up with the demand. Theres really no end in sight since the Mass Media is like a runaway Train with its relentless titilizing portrayal of sexual hooking up , extra marital affairs, et al.... as permissable fun ,allegedly without consequence. Such is western society.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Reactionary »

CallMeDave wrote:Theres really no end in sight since the Mass Media is like a runaway Train with its relentless titilizing portrayal of sexual hooking up , extra marital affairs, et al.... as permissable fun ,allegedly without consequence. Such is western society.
Do you think the society will wake up to the truth eventually? I mean, slavery used to be acceptable in the past, now it isn't. Do you think something similar could happen with abortion?
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by CallMeDave »

Reactionary wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:Theres really no end in sight since the Mass Media is like a runaway Train with its relentless titilizing portrayal of sexual hooking up , extra marital affairs, et al.... as permissable fun ,allegedly without consequence. Such is western society.
Do you think the society will wake up to the truth eventually? I mean, slavery used to be acceptable in the past, now it isn't. Do you think something similar could happen with abortion?
Some will wake up to the lies of our culture, but society overall will not and shall become even more desensitized and choose to willfuly suppress their moral conscience to accomodate whatever the pop culture endorses. Virtually all sense of morality and values have been abandoned by the populace in exchange for entitle-itis attitudes ... even to the point of sexual immorality trumping the very sanctity of developing human life . This is what occurs when God is no longer wanted.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by kmr »

Oooh End Times prediction, Dave! :esurprised:
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by CallMeDave »

kmr wrote:Oooh End Times prediction, Dave! :esurprised:
Yes..exactly as the New Testament says. Which side are you going to be on ?
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Dudeacus97 »

Reactionary wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:Theres really no end in sight since the Mass Media is like a runaway Train with its relentless titilizing portrayal of sexual hooking up , extra marital affairs, et al.... as permissable fun ,allegedly without consequence. Such is western society.
Do you think the society will wake up to the truth eventually? I mean, slavery used to be acceptable in the past, now it isn't. Do you think something similar could happen with abortion?
I do. For thousands of years, slavery was considered acceptable in society, which shocks people. It was present in some way, shape, or form in every society in human history. It's even present today, with human trafficking raking in billions of dollars and being the third-largest black market trading in the world, behind drugs and weapons. However, Christian abolitionists changed that.

My hope for the future is for future generations to look back in their history books and be shocked at what has managed to destroy more lives than every genocide in the 20th Century combined, wondering how these barbarians in the past could have simply sat down and did nothing while the masses were slaughtered under their noses.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Jac3510 »

Dudeacus97 wrote:I do. For thousands of years, slavery was considered acceptable in society, which shocks people. It was present in some way, shape, or form in every society in human history. It's even present today, with human trafficking raking in billions of dollars and being the third-largest black market trading in the world, behind drugs and weapons. However, Christian abolitionists changed that.

My hope for the future is for future generations to look back in their history books and be shocked at what has managed to destroy more lives than every genocide in the 20th Century combined, wondering how these barbarians in the past could have simply sat down and did nothing while the masses were slaughtered under their noses.
I wish I was that optimistic, but I'm not. All it took to get rid of slavery was for enough people to point out the obvious fact that slaves were human beings. The world had a broadly high view of the intrinsic value of humanity then, and so when that premise was conceded, the rest naturally followed.

It might seem that we could work on the same premise here. Just show that the unborn are fully human, and it naturally follows that their lives ought not be taken. The problem here, though, is that a new premise has been broadly adopted which, I think, is actually gaining strength. That's the idea that being human isn't what gives a person moral value (e.g., "human rights"), but rather being a person. We see it as absurd to say that there is such a thing as a human non-person, but that is precisely the idea that is being adopted, even among many pro-life evangelical Christians.

For instance, are you an organ donor? I bet you are. What you probably don't know is that the vast majority of organ donations comes from brain dead individuals. The argument is that, because these people are brain dead, they are legally dead and therefore no longer persons. And since they are no longer persons, their organs can be taken from them. That's true even though the heart is still beating, the body still regulates temperature, some reflexes still work, and pregnant brain-dead women can even carry a child near to term. But this person is supposedly dead, because their brains are so damaged that all brain activity essentially has ceased, and that irreparably. This isn't just a matter of a person in a coma who likely won't wake up. This is a person whose brain is, to oversimplify things, melted.

Again, I emphasize that MOST organ transplants come from just these people. What the medical team does is take the brain dead individual, put them under general anesthesia (which has always struck me as odd -- why put a cadaver under anesthesia?), and while the heart is still beating, they remove essential organs (usually the heart) for transplant. That surgery, of course, quickly results in cardiopulmonary death, and so it is literally a case in which the surgeon is the actual cause of the individual's death. The only reason this is even legal is that the law has defined these people as LEGALLY dead.

So under all this is the assumption that though the body has a beating heart, the person is dead, and they are dead because the consciousness is permanently gone. On that view, what makes a person a person is [the capacity for] consciousness. When that is lost, the person is dead. On the other side, until that is gained, the person is not a person. Since the unborn do not have self-consciousness, then, what is being killed is not a person, but simply a human body at some stage of development. Abortion, on this view, is no more morally objectionable than taking a heart from a dead person.

Now, there are LOTS of problems with that view. But my point is simply that not only is that the dominant view, but it is on the rise. As the world becomes more secular, personhood is being more and more rooted in the consciousness. Moreover, with the advent of neuroscience, secularists are able to continue to pull the wool over people's eyes in a new and more devious way than they previously have. They can (quite rightly) point to chemical and biological activity in the brain as the immediate, measurable cause of human action (including thought and emotion). So those faculties once attributed to the soul are being attributed more and more to materialistic processes, setting up the materialists to accuse those of us who believe in the soul of a "soul-of-the-gaps" argument. As that trend continues (with other technical reasons relating to the history of philosophy that we primarily blame Descartes for which I wont get into here), the "ghost in the machine" (that is, the soul) becomes less and less "necessary" in the public eye. As such, science and policy will continue to be codified around materialistic interpretations of neuroscience, which in turn will mean that it will be harder and harder to link personal identity in the soul. People will continue to link it to the consciousness. And in that case, there is no way to argue against the morality of abortion.

So really the only way to reverse the trend you hope for isn't by proving that the unborn are persons; or, rather, it is, but in order to do that, we have to prove the reality of the soul in an increasingly materialistic world. We have to argue for a general worldview of dualism as opposed to monism. Sadly, I don't see our side winning that argument any time soon, even though the facts are on our side. Not trying to be pessimistic. Just being honest.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Kurieuo »

Interestingly, it are pro-choice/abortion advocates who like to whimsically introduce such a metaphysical distinction such that a "person" is distinct from a "human".

Whereas in the past, blacks while being human were not deemed "persons", today the unborn while human are not deemed "persons" by many.

A pure naturalistic approach should see such metaphysical distinctions as irrelevant.

The unborn are physically human. And being physically human they deserve human rights the same as the born. Simple.
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by B. W. »

Kurieuo wrote:Interestingly, it are pro-choice/abortion advocates who like to whimsically introduce such a metaphysical distinction such that a "person" is distinct from a "human".

Whereas in the past, blacks while being human were not deemed "persons", today the unborn while human are not deemed "persons" by many.

A pure naturalistic approach should see such metaphysical distinctions as irrelevant.

The unborn are physically human. And being physically human they deserve human rights the same as the born. Simple.
Here is a thought on dealing with the abortion question with those pro choice people ask them...

Do you support the right to abort a governmental quota of female fetuses'?

Why is there more abortion clinic's located in poor inner city areas?

If the fetus is not consider human -- Why is it, for pregnant women, taking certain kinds of medicine be actually harmful to a fetus?

Is it wrong for a murderer of a pregnant woman to be charged for double murder since the fetus is not human?

Watch and listen to Todd Friel on the Wretched show and radio podcast... about this subject for more insights to answer pro choicers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_s6RG2vSvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VmjDfe9R64

Can you all think of anymore questions to ask prochoice folks that throws it back at the pro choicer as the questions posed above do?

We need to re-frame the argument by posing them questions that causes them to see their logical falsies
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Re: Abortion stays big business in the UK.

Post by Jac3510 »

Kurieuo wrote:Interestingly, it are pro-choice/abortion advocates who like to whimsically introduce such a metaphysical distinction such that a "person" is distinct from a "human".

Whereas in the past, blacks while being human were not deemed "persons", today the unborn while human are not deemed "persons" by many.

A pure naturalistic approach should see such metaphysical distinctions as irrelevant.
In their defense, I don't think they believe they are making a metaphysical distinction. Or, to put it differently, we and they are using the word "person" differently. They don't see a "person" as a metaphysical entity, a whole reality which is the real subject of real predication. Rather, they seem to use it as a kind of shorthand for a complicated set of ethical statements. Assume naturalism for the sake of argument. When you say you are grounding moral value in personhood, do you really think that "moral value" is a real thing that needs to be really "grounded" in an objective reality called "personhood"? I don't think so. Rather, by "moral value" you are talking about those ethical propositions that can be enforced on others whether they like it or not (which usually turns out to be some sort of libertarian ethic--ignore for now the obvious problem with why that ethic ought to be enforced); by "grounded" you are talking about the logical bases or premises from which you are reasoning. It's a matter of fact that premises need to be metaphysical truths. A social contract is a perfectly legitimate premise. The difficulty, which we need to be careful about jumping the gun and pointing out at this juncture, will be, of course, the warrant for assuming those premises. But that's all they mean by "grounded." Finally, "person" refers to a particularly interesting notion. Because it isn't a metaphysical truth, it's really just a circular argument in the naturalistic worldview. A "person" is just "that which is morally valuable." In other words, you become a person precisely because you are morally valuable. We, of course, would say that you are morally valuable precisely because you are a person, but we are dealing with their position, not ours.

The result of this line of thought is that the moral value of a person is grounded in arbitrary assumptions about what is morally valuable. That arbitrariness is illustrated by looking at pro-choice literature itself. Some argue that what makes a person a person (remembering what that means--the real idea here is what makes something morally valuable) is that the thing itself has self-interest; some argue that it is consciousness; some argue that it is self-awareness. Whatever it is, it is always some property. When a thing gains a certain property, it is considered the subject of moral rights because having that property is what makes you of moral value. Naturally, other than the property "being human," there is really no property that is common to all people that all have from the moment of conception to death. Most of the commonly appealed to properties (e.g., those mentioned above) are gained sometime conception and lost either at death or sometime before.

So it seems to me, in light of that, the real issue isn't that naturalists don't have the right to make a metaphysical distinction between persons and humans. With that, they would agree, if they used "person" and "human" they way you do. But they don't, because, frankly, they don't think that such metaphysical discussions are really terribly meaningful in the first place. The real problem they have isn't even that the moral statements they DO want to adhere to ultimately REQUIRE such metaphysical foundations, as demonstrated by the moral argument. The problem is their metaphysical assumptions that "persons" don't really exist in the first place. To litigate this in classical terminology, it is their nominalism. That, I think, is much more fertile ground for critique, for if nominalism fails, the so does moral anti-realism. Things become morally valuable not by declaration, but because they are rooted in something REAL. The question becomes what that is, and at that point, "Person" takes on real meaning. A "person" isn't a short-hand term for an entity possessing a set of properties (e.g., self-awareness, rationality, etc.), but rather, personhood is becomes the ground for those very properties.

So, again, in my view, the problem is what it has always been: nominalism v. realism. It's another reason that Descartes was foundational the the absolute ruin of the modern world.
The unborn are physically human. And being physically human they deserve human rights the same as the born. Simple.
Sure, on our view. But that's precisely what they don't believe. They just don't believe that all humans are morally valuable, because they root moral value in a capacity of humanity (whatever that capacity or set of capacities is), and then say that upon achieving that, they become morally valuable, which is to say, they become persons. It's hardly surprising that what is basically valued would have something to do with the mind. If you can think, you're valuable. If you can't, you aren't (not even to yourself), and therefore, you aren't a person.

And, as I said before, the sad fact is that a lot of evangelical pro-life people think that way, even if they don't know it. When you ague (as J. P. Moreland does!) that the brain-dead are no longer persons, you've undermined your entire case. By making the unifying principle of personhood (or the soul) something in the brain, then it stands to reason that the being without that brain capacity is not a person. Moreland, of course, would strongly disagree with my assessment. He would point, in the case of the unborn, to his discussion of first and second order capacities, but none of that, I argue, changes the fundamental facts. And the debate gets WAY too complicated at that point (I dissect it in some detail in the course I teach on ethics). Suffice it to say, anecdotally, that while Geisler used to agree with Moreland, he has come around after seeing this very debate to the view I'm describing here.

So I've gone way longer than I intended. The TL;DR to all of this is just that it is NOT enough to declare that the unborn are human and therefore deserve all the same rights as other humans. The debate has long been on what constitutes a PERSON. We argue that personhood is rooted in the soul (which you and I have a very, very similar view on, though not identical); the naturalist that it is rooted in some mental capacity. We need to do the hard work of showing why our view is philosophically and ethically superior to theirs. We have been doing that. We just need to keep doing it and do it on a more popular level.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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