Firstborn

[B. W.]

Please read my last two post on page 3 as I took the liberty to answer for Rick and Paul...

How do you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"?

Not the same way your cultic logic dictates to the unwary...

So lets begin: Your cultic presupposition interprets "firstborn" used in Col 1:15 to mean "first created" to buttress your cultic and heretical theological vision that Jesus Christ was a created being.

John 1:1, 14 and all the verses in the OT I have used in our debates (such as Isaiah 41:4, Isa 43:10, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12, Revelation 1:8, 18, Rev 2:8, Rev 21: 6, Rev 22:13, Gen 17:1, Exodus 6:3, Numbers 24:4c) prove that your view is heretical and that you are most likely here playing games with us. So don't play the martyr card with me...

How then can there be no God formed and then God created another god to be worshiped? How is that consistent with the unchanging nature of God? Why would God say in Exodus 20:3-5

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me...” NASB

Then create another that is worshiped in heaven AS GOD in Rev 5:10-14. Bowing down to worship one AS GOD, who was a created being, in Heaven no less, is a far cry different than one bowing to some earthly king. Not the same thing at all. You cannot confuse the two types of worship. NO OTHER GOD FORMED, NOR SHALL BE – Isaiah records and yet – you say there was and that it is okay to violate Exodus 20:3, 4, 5. AMAZING and then have the gall to come here and continue to spout your rhetoric – by playing the weeping martyr. Sorry it won’t work with me.

So FYI:

There is a Greek word for "first created" and guess what, Paul did not use that word in Col 1:15. The word Paul did not use is Proto – ktizo which is first born. He used proto-tikto in Col 1:15 and the next verse provides the correct way to render the word. Proto-tikto is used mainly to denote "pre-eminence" and look how it is used in Psalms 89:20, 27 concerning King David who was not a literally First Born child nor is Ephraim in Jer 31:9…

"I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" Ps 89 NASB.

Proto-ikzo is a title of preeminence. In other words Col 1:15 says - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

This means Jesus was the pre-eminent one involved in creation, which is consistent with the next verse that defines how the word Proto-tikto is to be correctly interpreted:

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. NASB (See Hebrews 1:3 too…)

So if Jesus was a created being as you contend - how could verse 16 - For by Him all things were created - be true? How could a non-existent person be around to create the world before he was ever created. Please note John 1:1, 3, 10.

Next, How can Hebrews 1:3 be true as well and God not be guilty of making another God - the very thing he swore he would never do?

You are is grave error and leading other astray, as evidence by what you written here on this forum proves that you face a strict judgment come judgment day and are currently facing eternal never ending recompense, unless you repent and turn to the real Jesus Christ who is the only one that can save you from the wrath to come.

I did not say "first created" I said "firstborn"

Dan 7:13,14 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and [men of every] language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."

The similarity of Daniels vision is found in:

Rev 5:11-14 "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, [be] blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped."

God has a command found in Heb 1:6 "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Would you conclude that God himself is violating his own commandments? Who is the one that sits on the throne? Who is the lamb?

They cannot be "the same being" they are distinct and separate individuals.

Your logic violates these verses - The Orthodox Christian Doctrine on the divine nature of the Godhead Trinity - mystery as it is, does not..

Exodus 20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me..."

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain."

What you claim as truth is tantamount in having God violate his own commandments as well as His own words as it is written in:

Isa 45:21, Isa 41:4, Isa 43:10,11, Isa 48:12, Rev 1:8, 17, 18, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13,Titus 3:4-6, 2 Peter 3:18; 1 John 4:14, Isa 44:6, Rev 1:8, 17, 18, and John 10:30 and Titus 2:13

You are in grave error...
-
-
-
Regarding your contention about describing use of first born verses first created did you not read my post in full... here is a quote from it below...

So FYI:

There is a Greek word for "first created" and guess what, Paul did not use that word in Col 1:15. The word Paul did not use is Proto – ktizo which is first born. He used proto-tikto in Col 1:15 and the next verse provides the correct way to render the word. Proto-tikto is used mainly to denote "pre-eminence" and look how it is used in Psalms 89:20, 27 concerning King David who was not a literally First Born child nor is Ephraim in Jer 31:9…

Proto-ikzo is a title of preeminence. In other words Col 1:15 says - He is the image of the invisible God, the (pre-eminent one) of all creation.

This means Jesus was the pre-eminent one involved in creation, which is consistent with the next verse that defines how the word Proto-tikto is to be correctly interpreted:

Col 1:16 - For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. NASB (See Hebrews 1:3 too…)

So if Jesus was a created being as you contend - how could verse 16 - For by Him all things were created - be true? How could a non-existent person be around to create the world before he was ever created. Please note John 1:1, 3, 10.

[1stjohn0666]

1stjohn,

I know you like to quote Hebrews 1:5, to try to show erroneously that since Jesus was begotten, he's not God. But, what do you do with Hebrews 1:8:
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


God the Father calls Jesus "God". Surely God would know if Jesus is God, right?

Heb 1:8,9 are Psalm quotes from the OT Psalm 45:6,7 We will have to use both texts to establish a simple truth!
Psalm 45:6,7 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows."

Heb 1:8,9 "But of the Son [He says], "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

It only makes sense that Jesus over and over again claimed to have a God, so to does the Psalmist and the writer to the Hebrews. Thus I conclude Jesus has a God!!

Hebrews 1:2, same chapter and in context, contradicts your claim...

The following verses also controdict your false JW and THE WAY's assumptions and poor scholarship...

Isa 44:24, Isa 45:12, Isa 45:18; Jer 51:15, John 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16-17 The conclusion is that you are in deep error and need to repent turning to the real Jesus Christ who can forgive you of leading others astray.

Bible is clear - only God created all things; therefore, Hebrews 1:2 ties into the rest of the chapter as the quote below explains

Quoted below from this Link...(The Hebrews author) exalts the Son on the basis of His radical distinction from the created order of Heaven and the angels. Hebrews 1:2 has already said that it was through the Son that the universe was made. The angels were mere spectators when the world was made (Job 38:7), but the universe came "through" the Son's agency. Lest we understand the Son's role in creation as being passive, the inspired author quotes the Father as saying:

You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth;

And the heavens are the work of your hands

Thus, the Son is given the same active role in creation attributed to YHWH in Psalm 102. The Son is both agent and active participant in creation. He is, therefore, vastly superior to the angels, who are "ministering spirits" and "servants" (verse 14). First century readers would have had no difficulty in understanding who "laid the foundations of the earth" - only YHWH was the hands-on creator of all things. If Christ is given this honor, He must have been YHWH - yet somehow distinct from the Father who here addresses Him.

2. The Father calls the Son "Lord." While "Lord" (Greek kurios) can merely be a title ascribed to men or angels, it is also the word used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. This is likely the sense it carries in the LXX translation of Psalm 102. When used in the Bible as an honorific, "lord" always signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or social station to the speaker. There are no exceptions. Thus, if the Father calls the Son "lord" in this sense, it would mean that He acknowledges the Son as superior to Himself in rank. While this usage is possible, it would seem to contradict the numerous times the Father is spoken as being superior to the Son. It is better, then, to understand "Lord" to mean YHWH, as it was in its original setting.

The person here addressed, as the Lord or Jehovah, and as the Maker of the heavens and the earth, is the same with the Son spoken to, and of, before; for the words are a continuation of the speech to him, though they are taken from another psalm, from Psalms 102:25. The phrase, "thou, Lord" is taken from Psalms 102:12 and is the same with, "O my God", Psalms 102:24 and whereas it is there said, "of old", and here, in the beginning, the sense is the same; and agreeably to the Septuagint, and the apostle, Jarchi interprets it by "at", or "from the beginning"; and so the Targum paraphrases it, "from the beginning", that the creatures were created, &c. that in the beginning of the creation, which is the apostle's meaning; and shows the eternity of Christ, the Lord, the Creator of the earth, who must exist before the foundation of the world; and confutes the notion of the eternity of the world: and the rounding of it shows that the earth is the lower part of the creation; and denotes the stability of it; and points out the wisdom of the Creator in laying such a foundation; and proves the deity of Christ, by whom that, and all things in it, were made. Gill

You assert that the text of Hebrews 1:2 is made the "worlds" but with a clear understanding of what the Greek text says is NOT "worlds" or as the word in Greek would be KOSMOS is completely absent from the text!!
Hebrews 1:2 from the Greek texts says AIONAS which is in FACT "ages"

[RickD]

John,

The word translated as "worlds" in Hebrews 1:2, is :
aiōn
Pronunciation
ī-ō'n (Key)

defined as;

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

You're grasping at straws now.

[Jac3510]

It's worse than grasping at straw, Rick. He's not even taking the word seriously. He is quite right that the word in 1:2 is not κοσμος (kosmos). But there is a reason for that. Let's look at verses one and two together and notice why the writer chose αιων (aion), because when you actually look at the passage, the usage of the latter word makes a stronger claim to divinity.

So here are the two verses together:

• Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

So just to make the logic of the verse a bit more obvious than it already is, it should be structured as follows:

• ___Long ago, at many times and in many ways, <A>
  God spoke to our fathers <B>
  • by the prophets <C>
  ___but in these last days <A'>
  he has spoken to us <B'>
  • by his Son <C'>
    • whom he appointed the heir of all things <D>
      through whom also he created the world <E>

The underlines are only there to provide some indentation on the first line. I don't know how to do it otherwise. Notice that I've labeled each line. A and A' are parallel. B and B' are parallel. C and C' are parallel. D and E are parallel. A and C each modify B and tell us something about about how God "spoke." A' and C' each modify B' and tell us something about how God "has spoken." D and E each modify C', telling us something about "the Son."

With the structure laid out, look at the argument of the verses. First, look at A-C. The controlling verb in this clause is "God spoke." It's a simple past tense verb--it just stakes a fact. So the author wants us to know that God spoke to people. To whom did He speak? He spoke to "our fathers." This tells us that the author is speaking as a Jew to Jews referring to the OT times. Moreover, we are told a couple of things about the means. First, we are talking about the ancient times ("long ago"), again, a reference to OT times. Second, God spoke to the OT fathers "in may times and in many ways. You should note that in Greek this is emphatic. While the controlling verb is "God spoke," the main idea of the first clause is HOW He spoke, and the answer is "in lots of ways at lots of times." If you've read the OT, you can give lots of examples. He spoke through dreams, through visions, through law, through direct revelation, etc. No person had a monopoly on divine revelation, and no one, not even Moses, could say that they had totally revealed God's will. So finally, we note that God spoke "by the prophets."

Now, look at the second section. The controlling verb is "God has spoken." These two verbs are paralleled and we notice an immediate contrast even in English. Whereas before God just spoke, now, God has spoken. In Greek, as in English, this is called a perfect tense. It refers to a completed action with ongoing results. Second, let's look at the modifiers regarding what God HAS SAID. First, He has spoken in these last days. So the ages are contrasted (keep that in mind--that will be very important in a minute). The OT times are "long ago," and the NT times are the "last days," and not just any last days--they are not yet future--but THESE last days, that is, the times in which the author himself was writing. The next contrast is in how He spoke. There is no longer many ways of speaking as there were in the olden days, but now there is a single, completed action. That means in these days, God didn't use a multiplicity of means or times to speak. He has spoken completely. Someone DOES have a claim on a monopoly on divine revelation, to have totally revealed God's will. And who is that? Not "the prophets," but rather "the Son," who is, of course, Jesus. So before we look at D and E, notice what we have so far:

Whereas before, God gave His revelation in OT times piecemeal, that is, a little bit here and a little bit there and by many individuals, in the NT, God had given ALL of His revelation at one point in time in one person: Jesus Christ. This by itself begins to set up the entire argument from the book of Hebrews that Jesus' message is superior to Moses', and therefore, people ought not go back into Moses' religion after having found Jesus'. This also, by the way, means that there is no more future revelation. God has spoken. The revelation is complete. To go claim new revelation from God is to claim that it is not true that God has spoken.

Now, look at D and E, which contains the clause you two are arguing about, Rick. Those clauses tell us something about the Son, namely that He is appointed heir of all things, and that through Him the aionion were made. The first is easy enough. Jesus not only gets EVERYTHING, but He gets EVERYTHING because EVERYTHING is already deeded to Him. That is, there is nothing NOT deeded to Him. If you can think of a thing, God has declared that it belongs to the Christ. You can imagine how that impacts the later argument about going back to the Law, but that's not relevant to our point here. We only need to point out that if it exists, existed, or will exist, then Jesus has been declared to own it. It is in light of all of this that we are told that Jesus is the one through whom the aionion were made. So lets take a look at that a little closer.

First, notice that it is plural. The author isn't just saying that God made "the world" through Jesus, or God made "the age" through Jesus. We are talking about all the "worlds" or all the "ages." To the extent we mean the former, we aren't talking about physical places or spheres of influence. That would be kosmos. We are talking about entire temporal systems--the totality of all that exists at that particular point in history, and not merely THAT it exists, but the WAY in which it exists--the WAY in which it OPERATES. During the "age of Law," God operated through the Law, revealing His will that way. That applied to both Jew and Gentile. That "world" or "age" was made through Christ. The former word is a fine translation . . . just imagine trying to live under the Law in OT times. You might shake your head and say, "Man, that was just a whole other world." You don't mean it wasn't earth. You mean the way in which this world operated then was fundamentally different. That's what the author is getting at here. And I remind you that this is PLURAL. We're talking about ALL the ages, both past and future. This is an important contrast with the first clause, that "long ago" God spoke. Even that age, that world, was made through Christ. That, by the way, is why it is that EVERYTHING is deeded to Him, because He is the means by which it was all made!

So let's go back to creation itself. That was an aion. It was a temporal system that operated a particular way. Guess what? God made the aion of creation through Christ. That means that Christ came before creation. And these last days, which the OT calls "the day of the LORD"? God has made in through Christ, too. Since the day of the LORD includes eternity, that means that God has made eternity through Christ. What all that means is that Christ is the means by which God made time itself. But that means that Christ is not in time. If He were, then Christ could not be the means by which time was made! But if Christ existed before time, then Christ could not have been created at all, for to be created is an EVENT, and an EVENT presupposes time. Therefore, Jesus Christ is eternal.

Now, while the declaration that Jesus is eternal is not a direct claim to His divinity, it is a stronger claim than simply saying that He was the means by which God made the universe. For Who or What is eternal other than God? Jesus is NOT a created being according to this verse. He is and was not the first thing created whereby everything else was created. He was the eternally preexisting means by which God made EVERYTHING in time, and through which God has COMPLETELY revealed His message. He is, as John calls Him, the IMAGE of the invisible God.

Now, I don't know what you call an eternally existent being that is the creator of everything and is the source of ALL of God's self-disclosure other than God. But, that last statement, to be fair, is an inference I draw from the text that I find very consistent with everything else I know about Jesus. At a bare minimum, we have to say what the text says. According to Heb 1:1-2, Jesus is an uncreated, eternal being, through whom all things were made, to whom all things belong, and by whom all knowledge of God has been disclosed, and therefore apart from whom nothing else can be said about God.

[B. W.]

Jac35, that's an interesting way to explain things – very good and insightful
-
-
-

[B. W.]

Here is a video on this subject you may find interesting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj6Ba7xci4Y
-
-
-