Where to now?

[Judah]

I was Baptised as a baby then Confirmed as an 11 yr old, in the Church of England (Episcopalian) and that membership has always been a major part of my identity, even nominally when I stopped attending church and had abandoned my faith.

Recently I read the Baptismal Service in my old Book of Common Prayer (Anglican prayer book) and also the Catechism.

I am having difficulty relating some of the following to Scripture:

At my Baptism, my Godparents made promises on my behalf so that I (written in the male pronouns here)... "may receive remission of his sins by spiritual regeneration... may enjoy the everlasting benediction of thy heavenly washing, and may come to the eternal kingdom which thou hast promised by Christ our Lord" and they prayed that "our Lord Jesus Christ would vouchsafe to receive him, to release him of his sins, to sanctify him with the Holy Ghost, to give him the kingdom, and everlasting life."

As an infant I must... "faithfully, for his part, promise by you [Godparents] that are his sureties (until he come of age to take it upon himself) that he will renounce the devil and all his works, and constantly believe God's holy Word, and obediently keep his commandments."

How does an infant, honestly and truly, do that?
And is that what Baptism is really about... having someone else make promises for you instead?

This appears to be based on Mark 10:13-16 where people brought little children to Christ that he should touch them, and Jesus rebuked his disciples who would have turned them away, saying "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Jesus then "took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them".

It now looks to me more like a dedication than a Baptism.
But later I followed the herd and, with no real conviction, confirmed those Baptismal vows of my Godparents at my Confirmation... like a two-step process.

How do other Christians here, those who were also baptised as babies, reconcile their baptisms to what is described in Scripture?
Does it suffice?

I've also noticed in the Catechism (which needed to be "learnt" before Confirmation) the following...

Q. How many Sacraments hath Christ ordained in his Church?
A. Two only, as generally necessary to salvation, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Necessary to salvation?????

Oh my, how am I going to remain an Anglican?

[Felgar]

I've also noticed in the Catechism (which needed to be "learnt" before Confirmation) the following...

Q. How many Sacraments hath Christ ordained in his Church?
A. Two only, as generally necessary to salvation, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

Necessary to salvation?????

Oh my, how am I going to remain an Anglican?

Wow.. That's written in the Anglican book of doctrine? That doesn't fly as far as I'm concerned.

In my opinion, baptism is about a public declaration of belief in Jesus, and commitment to follow Him. For that reason I don't think infant baptisms are useful at all in terms of salvation.

They may be useful in terms of receiving blessings from elders, but for salvation they are not relevant. For that matter though, I don't even think that adult baptisms are relevant. They ARE however, a very important part of growing in the Lord and committing to Him.

[Judah]

Yes, that is exactly what is written in the Catechism in my Church of England Book of Common Prayer.

But I am thinking there has to be more to it than that... surely?

I am wondering if it has to do with Baptism representing repentance and the saving grace for justification, and the Lord's Supper as ongoing sanctification... and that adding up to salvation???
The Catechism does go on to ask what is meant by these two sacraments and states that they are outward visible signs of the inward spiritual grace.

I don't know for sure how I am supposed to interpret this, but I am wondering if it is like the equation: justification + sanctification = salvation.

But I can say for sure that myself at 11 yrs old had no idea what it was all about.

[Judah]

Oh, and I was flicking through the Solemization of Matrimony, the marriage service, and noticed that the marriage vows for the bride include the promise to obey her husband.
Gulp!

As I understand what is written in Scripture, the promise should be to submit to her husband, just as all Christians (which includes husbands) are to submit one to another... and that the word obey was not actually the word used by Paul when he wrote about these matters.

Now that does happen to be an older version of the marriage service and when my husband and I married we made exactly the same vows to each other in a newer version that did not include "obey".
But I do wonder the reason for putting that word in there instead of the word submit and it's slightly different meaning.

[Felgar]

I don't know for sure how I am supposed to interpret this, but I am wondering if it is like the equation: justification + sanctification = salvation.

Yeah, and if that's the case, then that IS valid doctrine.

[Judah]

I'm thinking that my original questions about infant baptism may best be asked on a Church of England forum instead, but if there are any others here who were baptised as babies, I would certainly appreciate your comments.

[LittleShepherd]

Infant baptism isn't baptism at all, really. The Bible is quite clear on what baptism is -- immersion in water as a method of a believer declaring to others that he's following Christ. A symbolic representation of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. If it's not voluntary, it's simply not baptism.

My church does, however, do baby dedications. This has very little to do with the baby, though. It's merely the parents making a pledge to raise their child, to the best of their abilities, in the ways of the Lord. No sprinkling of water. Just a simple promise on behalf of the parents.

The verse that people tend to misread as making baptism necessary to salvation clearly states "for the remission of sins," not "for the forgiveness of sins." It's a huge difference. Remission means "a lessening of intensity or degree; abatement."

What the verse really says is that if you are baptized, then the pull of sin in your life will be lessened -- note that this doesn't mean it goes away completely, nor does it specify to what extent the pull of sin will be lessened. Upon closer inspection, this verse seems like a promise, not the requirement that some churches make it out to be.

Personally, I know that the pull of some sins was lessened the very moment I came to Christ. My baptism was soon afterwards, so I can't be sure to what extent it lessened the pull of sin in my life. It all happened so fast, so all I know for sure is that the pull of sin did indeed lessen in my life. I still struggle, but the transformation process has begun. It isn't nearly as overwhelming as it once was.

If you're having doubts about your baptism, though, it's really easy to get that taken care of. Just find yourself a pastor and tell them your circumstances and your desire for an oldschool baptism. I don't know any pastor who wouldn't be thrilled to provide it for you. Just take a change of clothes with you and get it over with, and you need never worry about it again.

On your main question, though, no. There is no Biblical basis for infant baptism -- they are not believers making a conscious decision, so it's really not baptism at all. And on confirmation -- you can't confirm what you never had to begin with. I'm sure you can find some really fancy justifications for this practice if you look, none of them resting on the solid foundation of the Bible. My thoughts are that if you need some fancy justification, it probably ain't worth it. Kick it oldschool and keep it simple, I say.

Edit -- Just thought I'd add that even though it wasn't an infant baptism(my mother would have liked that, I'm sure, but my dad didn't go for it), I was falsely baptized once many years before I actually became a Christian. Whether as an infant or a teenager, the baptism of a nonchristian isn't a baptism at all.

[Judah]

Thanks LS, your comments are helpful.

It would be a simple matter to be baptized again... although it looks like I should not even say "again" despite staring at my Baptismal certificate which I have right in front of me.
I'm just a little taken aback by this discovery.
I guess it will take a little bit of thinking on before I make any kind of decision on what to do about it.

[LittleShepherd]

Thanks LS, your comments are helpful.

Glad to be of service. And don't worry about it too much -- whatever you end up doing, you're not gonna lose your Salvation. Just pray about it, read over the Bible verses concerning it, and let the Holy Spirit guide you. I'm sure if you do that, you'll end up making the right decision.

[j316]

Thanks LS, your comments are helpful.

It would be a simple matter to be baptized again... although it looks like I should not even say "again" despite staring at my Baptismal certificate which I have right in front of me.
I'm just a little taken aback by this discovery.
I guess it will take a little bit of thinking on before I make any kind of decision on what to do about it.

I was raised methodist and episcopalian so I went through the same process that you did. I am not certain that anyone can make a clear case either for or against the biblical validity of the process, but it has been a common practice for the majority of christians for almost 2000 years. But I think what you may be going through at this time is what happened to me, it seemed the Spirit was calling meto make a more voluntary statement than the formal one I went through.

I just basically did what LS suggested and got dunked, it was quite spiritually satisfying. I don't feel that it made any real statement about anything other than answering a call that needed a response.

I should add that I did feel intellectually that it shouldn't be necessary, footdragging basically, but the impulsion didn't go away until I made that affirmation. Also I am a pretty reserved person and it all seemed kind of intimidating.

[Judah]

j316, what you have described as your experience mirrors almost exactly where I am at just now, although I am not sure yet if the Spirit is calling me to do anything or not.
When you "got dunked" did that bother you at all about what it said (supposing it said anything) about your earlier baptism?
Having always considered myself an Anglican, it seems to me that I am being very arrogant to say that my infant baptism within the Anglican community wasn't good enough that I should have to do it again.
OK, I think this is something I am just going to let take a little time (and prayer) to know what I am to do about it. Your saying that the impulsion didn't go away until you made the affirmation (and perhaps seeing it as an affirmation instead of a first time baptism is the key) does make a lot of sense.
Thanks for that, j316.

[j316]

j316, what you have described as your experience mirrors almost exactly where I am at just now, although I am not sure yet if the Spirit is calling me to do anything or not.
When you "got dunked" did that bother you at all about what it said (supposing it said anything) about your earlier baptism?
Having always considered myself an Anglican, it seems to me that I am being very arrogant to say that my infant baptism within the Anglican community wasn't good enough that I should have to do it again.
OK, I think this is something I am just going to let take a little time (and prayer) to know what I am to do about it. Your saying that the impulsion didn't go away until you made the affirmation (and perhaps seeing it as an affirmation instead of a first time baptism is the key) does make a lot of sense.
Thanks for that, j316.

I do not think that the second baptism really replaced the first, in the sense that the first was somehow ineffective. Infant baptism is not the scriptural norm but I think it probably derives from the authority the Lord gave the church to bind and release. It is natural for parents to want to give their children something as wonderful as christianity so the early church may have realized that they had the power to do so.

Like you I saw confirmation as simply something I did because it was what you did. I think the point is that it is pro forma, it wasn't really a personal statement, not that it couldn't be and may be for some.

I felt the need to make my own statement, in front of my fellow christians, about how I felt about Jesus. You know its funny but as I write I am finding it important to recapture the spirit of that time, what exactly it was that lead me to take that step.

The story of my spiritual awakening is in the personal testimony thread, and I can remember clearly the impulsion to do something. I was never certain exactly what it was though. It seemed as if I owed the Lord some act or debt or whatever. It was never clear. I almost became a priest, I got up to the canonical exam but never completed it. It became clear in that process that that was not what I needed to do. But something was still missing. My wife was a Baptist at that time and I began to focus on baptism, but I had some serious reservations about the issue that concerns you, I did not want to repudiate my original baptism. Also it was a big church and really rigid so it just didn't seem right.

A year later we started going to a Calvary Chapel church near our home and found it to be a really Spirit filled place that was not as intimidating as First Baptist. It was in that context that I could finally let go and make the affirmation that I felt I needed to make. Surprisingly it turned out that this was probably the source of that unnamed compulsion, because afterward I was much more at peace than formerly.

I hope this helps you, it has been rewarding to relive it. I found this website from a similar impulsion to do something, and there is sufficient gold among the dross to keep me interested.

[Judah]

Thanks j316.
I just wandered on to this forum after doing a Google search for Christian apologia sites, and found I had struck gold here.
There are a lot of folks here who are very generous in the way they are willing to share their knowledge and experiences, and I am a very appreciative of that. You are one of them, j316, and yes, what you have said does help me. Thanks.