Question for old earth and theistic evolution followers

[cubeus19]

This has to do with nature in general. More specifically with the way you see animals hunt and kill each other for food, for mates, for fun or for whatever. Scientists and philosophers call it the "red tooth and claw" mentality.

According to young earth creationists before the fall of man all the animals basically were kind to each other and they all ate plants. Once sin entered into the world they all or some turned mean grew sharp teeth and claws and began to hurt and kill each other for food or for whatever reasons they do what they do.

Well according to old earth, progressive, day age creation models, or even theistic evolution this stuff was going on way before the fall of man or even before the appearance of man such as with the dinosaurs.

Now this question is part scientific and part philosophical, in regards to God's nature. If God allowed this stuff to go on before sin entered the world than does it indicate that God finds such things as murder, violence, or this "red tooth and claw" thing as something that is "good" and "perfect"? Would this also mean that He may not be as all loving as what most of us would like Him to be?

I certainly hope this isn't the case and I'm sure this question has been presented at various places before. I'm just wondering if anyone knows how to answer this. Good day.

[RickD]

cubeus wrote:
According to young earth creationists before the fall of man all the animals basically were kind to each other and they all ate plants. Once sin entered into the world they all or some turned mean grew sharp teeth and claws and began to hurt and kill each other for food or for whatever reasons they do what they do.

Cubeus, do you believe Lucifer had fallen before he tempted Eve in the garden? If yes, then sin, through Satan, had already entered creation. And yes, some YEC'S believe animals evolved after Adam sinned. Those that believe animals suddenly grew claws and sharp teeth, believe in an evolution much, much quicker than any Darwinian evolutionist believes is possible.

Now this question is part scientific and part philosophical, in regards to God's nature. If God allowed this stuff to go on before sin entered the world than does it indicate that God finds such things as murder, violence, or this "red tooth and claw" thing as something that is "good" and "perfect"? Would this also mean that He may not be as all loving as what most of us would like Him to be?

How do you make the jump from animals killing animals as part of the way God created, to murder being "good"? Only man was created in God's image. It is the wrongful killing of humans that is murder. One can't murder animals. If you really feel like God is less than all-loving because He created the ecological and biological systems that have animals killing other animals, then you could always just believe in YEC. Of course there are other problems you'd have to address if you took that stance.

I certainly hope this isn't the case and I'm sure this question has been presented at various places before. I'm just wondering if anyone knows how to answer this. Good day.

I personally have no problem believing God is love, while believing in OEC and all it entails. Including animal death.
Maybe this will help:http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... years.html

[SonofAletheia]

This has to do with nature in general. More specifically with the way you see animals hunt and kill each other for food, for mates, for fun or for whatever. Scientists and philosophers call it the "red tooth and claw" mentality.

According to young earth creationists before the fall of man all the animals basically were kind to each other and they all ate plants. Once sin entered into the world they all or some turned mean grew sharp teeth and claws and began to hurt and kill each other for food or for whatever reasons they do what they do.

Well according to old earth, progressive, day age creation models, or even theistic evolution this stuff was going on way before the fall of man or even before the appearance of man such as with the dinosaurs.

Now this question is part scientific and part philosophical, in regards to God's nature. If God allowed this stuff to go on before sin entered the world than does it indicate that God finds such things as murder, violence, or this "red tooth and claw" thing as something that is "good" and "perfect"? Would this also mean that He may not be as all loving as what most of us would like Him to be?

I certainly hope this isn't the case and I'm sure this question has been presented at various places before. I'm just wondering if anyone knows how to answer this. Good day.

I see no problem with animals killing each other pre-Fall. It would seem to be a part of God's creation. Look at the video I'll post at the bottom. WLC talks about how wolves are needed to kill in certain areas to help maintain balance in the environment.
We don't say a lion 'murders' a zebra. It simply kills it. There's no moral issue here at all as animals are not moral agents
So if you take the position that animal death is incoherent pre-Fall you would have to give some reasons for us to think that.


Good video from William Lane Craig on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xhqvulqoj4

[cubeus19]

Thank you all so much! That answered it. It helped alot, thanks guys! I love you!

[Kurieuo]

Thank you all so much! That answered it. It helped alot, thanks guys! I love you!

To put a different spin with an idea I've been considering in light of playing the Mass Effect game...

Say you create a small robot -- simply mechanics running on some software to do something. Then you create a whole "ecosystem" of robots, some with symbiotic relationships, but each finely tuned to meet some need within such a system. Now, some robots might break down... so you have some other robot that comes a cleans up the "broken robots"... you need to replace those though to keep things stable, so you give robots the ability to recreate themselves...

I can easily imagine this being akin to the insect world... and even higher.

Being the sentient, emotional and self-reflective beings we are, we often project our feelings onto things. A child might cry when her teddy bear gets its arm torn off in a sibling fight because their teddy is now hurt. But the teddy isn't really hurt. It doesn't feel anything and isn't alive. It's just material with stuffing and some bits sown in for eyes or something. But the child still projects her feelings and empathy onto the bear.

At what point does it become reasonable to empathise in this "robotic" world we've created. I begin installing "pain sensors" so my little robotic creatures know to stay away from danger, hot things perhaps that might fry its software or melt its parts. I install "fear" software so that it can preserve itself for a longer period of time. Sounds like I'm going to quite some lengths here to help my little creations preserve themselves... but at the same time I've now introduced mechanisms that allow my little robots to feel fear and die with pain. But, thankfully I also added in "adrenaline" and certain "endorphins" to help aid in this situation. Sounds like I'm going to a lot of effort to create a caring system full of robotic creatures.

Ultimately, any questions of God's "evilness" in allowing death, can be met equally with God's apparently "care" over putting in limitations to pains, not to mention all the good that exists in life. Fine, take one portion like the female prey mantis devouring it's male, but nonetheless the good of mating and having offspring to survive, and you know what? The male knows... and often sits on the female waiting for the best opportunity of escape... so obviously there are some mechanics God set in place. It God were really so evil and malicious then why allow the good... and overall despite the bad elements, I think when taken collectively that there is much beauty and good in creation, enough to call it good and even very good.

The question ultimately boils down to why would God create a world to be temporary. I mean, our entire universe is just going to expand into oblivion with stars collapsing and all life as we now it dying out. The bigger question to ask is why God would design a temporary world like ours...? Once you have answered that, then questions of death in the world don't mean so much... it's just a natural part of the God's order that He designed to meet His desired end purpose.

[nuthajason]

it really comes down to the definition of sin.

sin is turning from God. sin is acting against our inbuilt conscious and or the Holy Spirit. Since animals don't have a conscious awareness of God they cannot sin even though what they appear to do is sinful by human standards (such as murder etc). They are following their natural instincts and so are blameless. ergo they and the humans who evolved before Adam (whom i beleive was not the first man but the first man made directly by God to be sinless and have a relationship and awareness of Him), are all blamless.
j