Shroud of Turin

[bippy123]

I noticed on the History Channel's "The Bible" series, they show Jesus' nail holes in his hands, instead of wrists. Guess the producers are not Shroud believers.

The producers are also probably not believers in human anatomy because its been shown time and time again that a nail through the palms won't support a human body so the shroud actually corrects the medieval paintings of that time.

[bippy123]

They had blow dryers back then? Now it all makes sense.

And makeup and eyeliner . The 1st century was known for their makeup applications

[Philip]

Most people in the first century probably not only looked rough, but their collective "funk" can almost still be smelled. I would have wanted to have been one of the first Baptized, for more than one reason - and often!

[RickD]

Does anyone have a link that shows it was more likely that the nails were in the wrists rather than in the hands?

[bippy123]

Does anyone have a link that shows it was more likely that the nails were in the wrists rather than in the hands?

This is a summary by forensic pathologist Dr. Robert Bucklin who has participated in over 25000 autopsies in his career.
Nails throigh the palm wouldn't be able to support a 175 pound man and he would have torn right off the cross . The nails through the wrist are anatomically correct and actually correct all medieval artistic depictions that show the nail through the palms. You can also download the free shroud 2.0 app which shows clearly in the positive black and white image (remember the shroud itself is a negative image) that the wound is clearly shown on the wrist.
http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/index.p ... b=1&page=5

A SUMMARY OF DR ROBERT BUCKLIN'S RESEARCH ON THE BODY OF THE MAN ON THE SHROUD IS AS FOLLOWS:

The body was approximately 5ft 11inches tall.
The body weighed approximately 175 pounds.
The body was anatomically well developed and normal.
The body had stiffened in Rigor Mortis.
The body had long hair, and a short beard.
The body had multiple puncture wounds over the entire scull area.
The body had an abrasion at the tip of the nose.
The right cheek was distinctly swollen.
Rounded foreign objects can be seen over the right and left eyes.
There is a large blood stain over the right chest area, consistent with the post mortem wound to the chest.
There is a penetrating skin wound in the right chest wall produced by a sharp puncturing instrument.
The blood flows from the injuries in the wrist indicate that the victim died with his hands raised about 65 degrees from the horizontal.
The body had been nailed through both wrists.
Only four fingers are visible of both hands, suggesting injury to the Median nerve of both wrists.
The body had been nailed through both feet.
The left foot had been flexed over the right foot before nailing.
There are a series of traumatic injuries which extend from the shoulder areas to the lower portion of the back, and down to the backs of the calves. These images are dumbbell-shaped imprints, applied possibly by a whip.
There is abrasion and denuding of the skin over the right and left shoulder blade area consistent with a heavy object, like a beam resting over the shoulders.
The whip injuries occurred earlier than the other injuries.
Had been scourged with His hands above His heads, by two separate soldiers.
The victim was executed in an upright position with His arms extended upwards.
A Crucifixion type posture would be the most plausible explanation for these findings.
The wound in the right side released a watery type fluid from the body cavities as well as blood from the heart area.
The Man on the Shroud died of postural asphyxia as the result of His position during the Crucifixion.
There is also evidence of severe blood loss from the skin wounds, as well as fluid accumulation in the chest cavities related to terminal cardio-respiratory failure.
In the case of Man on the Shroud, the forensic pathologist will have information relative to the circumstances of death by Crucifixion which he can support by his anatomical findings.
The forensic pathologist will be aware that the Individual Whose Image is depicted on the cloth has undergone:
Puncture injuries to His wrists and feet
Puncture injuries to His head
Multiple traumatic whip-like injuries to His back
Post mortem puncture injury to His chest area which has released both blood and a water type of fluid.
Dr Robert Bucklin concluded, "From this data it is not an unreasonable conclusion for the forensic pathologist to determine that only One Person in history has undergone this sequence of events. That Person is Jesus Christ."

[bippy123]

Here is the link of the wrist wound. There is absolutely no doubt that the nails went through the wrist.

http://www.shroudfaq.com/A069.htm

[bippy123]

Most people in the first century probably not only looked rough, but their collective "funk" can almost still be smelled. I would have wanted to have been one of the first Baptized, for more than one reason - and often!

What Philip said

[bippy123]

More on the recent shroud dating tests done by Professor Fanti. I will post in parts

Part 1

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... -show.html

The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist. The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics. Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin. ... The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.

According to the Vatican Insider article:

"the dates given to the Shroud after FT-IR testing, is 300 BC ±400, 200 BC ±500 after Raman testing and 400 AD ±400 after multi-parametric mechanical testing. The average of all three dates is 33 BC ±250 years."
This can be summarised as:

Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy: 300 BC ±400, i.e. 700 BC-AD 100;
Raman spectroscopy: 200 BC ± 500, i.e. 700 BC-AD 300; and
Multi-parametric mechanical: 400 AD ± 400, i.e. AD 1 - AD 800.
The average of all three dates is 33 BC ± 250 years, i.e. 283 BC-AD 217.
So all three tests yield a date range in which Jesus' death (either AD 30 or AD 33) , falls.

Could it be that the turin scientists were getting ready to do tests of his own as we talked about last year on this thread and Fanti just happened to beat them to the punch with his tests. I'm just throwing a bone out there lol.

Now about the samples Fanti used:

The experiments were carried out on fibres taken from the Shroud during a previous study, in 1988, when they were subjected to carbon-14 dating. The late Prof. Giovanni Riggi di Numana, a Turin microanalyst, cut the sample from the Shroud in 1988 for the three radiocarbon laboratories to radiocarbon date. But Riggi kept for himself, with unofficial approval by the then Archbishop of Turin, Cardinal Ballestrero, but apparently without official approval by the Vatican, a "reserve sample" of fibres he trimmed from the Shroud :

"Providing further fuel for the conspiracy theorists was the fact that the Turin microanalyst Giovanni Riggi, Gonella's friend and personal choice to perform the actual cutting of the Shroud samples in place of Mme Flury-Lemberg, seems to have had something of a hidden agenda. Instead of cutting off just the sample that was needed by the laboratories, he would cut off twice the amount, halve it, and divide only one of the halves into three for the laboratories, retaining the other. On his discovering that he had made the Arizona portion too small to meet the agreed weight, he snipped off a small portion from the retained piece. Arizona thus received its sample in two parts (for a complete scheme of this apportionment, see fig. 24). It is also little known that he kept the trimmed edges, trimmings that are no longer extant. There is some dispute in Turin concerning whether he did this with official approval, though photographs of the trimmings that I have seen certainly show Cardinal Ballestrero's seal. As for the rest of the retained portion, probably enough to do another carbon dating, whoever may have this and where it is by no means clear, though it is said to be personally held by Cardinal Saldarini." (Wilson, I., "The Blood and the Shroud," 1998, pp.186-187).

Part 2 coming.

[bippy123]

"Shroud of Turin returns to spotlight with new pope, new app, new debate," NBC News, Alan Boyle, New research has found that the Shroud of Turin, a mysterious relic previously believed to date back only to the Middle Ages, was actually created between 280 B.C. and 220 A.D., around the time of when Jesus would have lived and died. ... The claim immediately faced a wave of criticism, including a harsh statement from Turin's archbishop that some say has driven a stake into the book's heart. See below on the Archbishop of Turin's false claim that "there's `no degree of security' as to the authenticity of the fiber samples. ... The new book refers to those past claims, plus a new angle. That angle has to do with single fibers that were purportedly vacuumed up from the shroud during scientific testing. Riggi was also involved in vacuuming "any debris or loose materials from the underside of the cloth" in STURP's ( Shroud of Turin Research Project) 1978 examination and tests on the Shroud:

"Around 10.45 pm on the night of Sunday 8 October [1978] twelve young men arrived at the suite carrying a 5 m long sheet of 2 cm plywood draped with an expensive-looking sheet of red silk. When the silk was pulled back, the Shroud was revealed beneath ... Then, with the aid of Poor Clare nuns, one of the Shroud's sides was unstitched from the backing cloth sewn on to it in 1534, allowing parts of the normally inaccessible underside to be viewed for the first time in four hundred years. This was done to enable Prof Giovanni Riggi and his Italian scientific team to perform their experiments. Given only two weeks' notice that he would be examining the Shroud, Riggi had developed several impressive experiments. .... Riggi's next experiment was to use a special vacuum with sterilized filters to remove any debris or loose materials from the underside of the cloth but little of importance was found in the results." (Wilson, I. & Schwortz, B., "The Turin Shroud: The Illustrated Evidence," 2000, pp.68,70).
Since Riggi in 1988 kept back for himself a significant piece of the Shroud, he presumably also had kept for himself the dust, including fibres in it, from his 1978 vacuuming of the Shroud, and these fibres were also included in those obtained by Prof. Fanti after Riggi's death.

It seems like there is a photograph of the Riggi shroud sample with the official seal of Cardinal Ballestrero on it. If this can be verified and it seems that there are at least 2 witnesses to it, then this sample is valid.

But as Garza-Valdes pointed out:

"... I had been caught in a political situation in which the words of Cardinal Ballestrero would be disregarded once he relinguished his custodianship of the Shroud to Cardinal Saldarini, as happened in September 1990 ... When I obtained the samples in Turin in May 1993 ... I believed that Riggi and Gonella had the authority to give me the samples. ... Were the samples from Riggi truly from the Shroud of Turin? I have the photograph of Cardinal Ballestrero's seal on the container in which the samples were kept. There is no doubt, as one looks at the samples, that they are from the Shroud. Also, during my conference at the Polytechnic of Turin, where I showed the photographs of the samples, Dr Franco A. Testore, who had actually done the weighing of the Shroud segments, recognized the three trimmings as being from the borders of the segment cut on April 21, 1988." (Garza-Valdes, 1998, pp.76-77. My emphasis).

The archbishop's comments "put stakes into Fanti's work," Vatican Insider reported. This is false. Just because the Turin authorities are in denial that Prof. Giovanni Riggi kept his own private `reserve samples' from the Shroud does not mean that he didn't. It has been well-documented over the years that Riggi had his own `reserve sample' of the Shroud and the Turin authorities must have known it but apparently did nothing about it. Garza-Valdes himself faxed all the details to Cardinal Saldarini in 1995 but he was ignored.

[bippy123]

I would think that Fanti either has the photograph of the Riggi sample with the seal of cardinal Ballestrero on it in his position or can obtain it from garza, with the 2 witnesses of it, doctor Franco Testore who had done the weighings of the samples for the 88 tests and recognized the Riggi sample and Garza .

Like I said before the next 6 months is going to be smoking hot. There is nothing negative here and it's all potentially massively positive.

If you guys think this caused a stir , wait until the holographic studies in the holland labs are over.

[bippy123]

Russ breault interviews Dame Isabel Pitzek on the shroud of turin. New video.
This is a 35 minute interview.
Pitzek is a world reknowned artist and also a particle physicist.
She explains why the shroud from an artists perspective.

http://youtu.be/AuYIMmvGXg4

She totally annihilates Walter Mccrone on his paint theory, from her knowledge of vermillion paint.

[bippy123]

Part 2 of the interview. Sorry, didnt know it was 2 parts

http://youtu.be/WLh-88DFASI

Can't comment on part 2 as I just started watching it .

[Swimmy]

Its starting to look like Fanti's claims are full of crap

[bippy123]

Its starting to look like Fanti's claims are full of crap

Where are u getting this info from Swimmy ?

[bippy123]

Oh ok I was just going through the shroud story forum. We need to see if Fanti did his tests on the dust and fiber fragments from the Riggi dusting or the piece of the shroud that Riggi obtained from the shroud itself.