The warning second coming website

[RickD]

Bippy, as far as this whole praying to Mary, asking for her to pray for us, goes, can you back up from scripture, that believers should ask anyone who has died, besides Christ, to pray for us? And, can you give any proof from scripture that those who have gone to be with The Lord, can even hear us speak to them?

[Philip]

Do people in heaven pray for those on earth? I used to think not, but have reconsidered. But I do know that we are NOT to pray to saints - ANY saints.

From Randy Alcorn's Book "Heaven" (p. 71):

"Based upon scriptural evidence, I believe that departed saints in the present heaven DO intercede in prayer - at least sometimes - for those of us still on earth.

Christ, the God-man, is in Heaven, at the right hand of God, interceding for people on Earth (Romans 8:34), which tells us there is at least on person who has died and gone to Heaven and is now praying for those on earth. The martyrs in Heaven also pray to God (Revelation 6:10), asking him to take specific action on earth. They are praying for God's justice on the earth, which has intercessory implications for Christians now suffering here. The sense of connection and loyalty to the body of Christ - and concern for the saints on earth - would likely be enhanced, not diminished, by being in Heaven (Ephesians 3:15). In any case, Revelation 6 makes it clear that some who have died an are now in Heaven are praying concerning what is happening on earth.

If prayer is simply talking to God, presumably we will pray more in Heaven than we do now - not less. And given our righteous state in Heaven, our prayers will be more effective than ever (James 5:16). Revelation 5:8 speaks of the "prayers of the saints" in a context that many include saints in Heaven, not just on earth. WE ARE NEVER TOLD TO PRAY TO THE SAINTS, BUT ONLY TO GOD. Yet the saints may well be praying for us."

Alcorn states that: "If the martyrs in Heaven know that God hasn't yet brought judgement on their persecutors (Revelation 6:9-11), it seems evident that the inhabitants of the present Heaven can see what's happening on Earth, at least to some extent. When Babylon is brought down, an ahgel points to events happening on Earth and says, "Rejoice over here, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! Gd has judged her for the way she treated you" )Revelation 18:2)). That the angel specifically addresses people living in Heaven indicates they're aware of what's happening on Earth."

"Further, there is "the roar of a great multitude in Heaven shouting: Hallelujah!" and praising God for specific events of judgement that have just taken place on Earth (Revelation 1(:1-5). Again, the saints in Heaven are clearly observing what is happening on earth."

Alcorn references the story of King Saul and the witch of Endor, saying "Samuel remembered what Saul had done before Samuel died, and he was aware of what had happened since he died (1 Samuel 28:16-19). Though God could have briefed Samuel on all this, it seems likely the prophet knew simply because those in Heaven are aware of what happens on earth."

Alcorn references Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, saying, "They seemed fully aware of the dram they'd stepped into, of what was currently transpiring on earth, and of God's redemptive play about to be accomplished."

Alcorn also references Abraham and Lazarus seeing the rich man in Hell: "If it is possible, at least in some cases, to see Hell from Heaven, why would people be unable to see Earth from Heaven?"

[Byblos]

First,

She so loved the world that she gave her only Son.

This makes a mockery of John 3:16. And, there's sufficient biblical evidence that Mary had other children after Jesus.

What? If you think this is being contrasted with John 3:16 you are wrong. The only thing this is saying is that she submitted to the will of God (remember 'let it be according to your will, not mine'?).

Next:

Behold Mary on Calvary, she suffers and prays; she stands, as one offering sacrifice.

Again, making a mockery of Christ's sacrifice by bringing attention to what he believes was Mary's sacrifice.

She stands in suffering and prayer Rick, a mother who willingly submitted to the will of God now sees the culmination of that sacrifice. Are you saying it wasn't a sacrifice on her part? We're not talking about the same sacrifice of her son (for all mankind), we're talking about her own, personal sacrifice. To deny that is irrational.

You then wanted to show me what coredemptrix means from a Catholic pov. I read what you linked, and saw what it said. What was taken out of context?

The fact that everything in that article points to Mary's love for her son and her desire to see all souls be brought closer to HIM, that context.

[Philip]

I do find many teachings of the Catholic Church, its teachings about the papacy and Peter, Papal Infallibility, about Mary, to be unscriptural. And so I'm re-posting some very important questions and materials John Ankerberg has assembled here - many of them referencing official Catholic Church documents: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =3&t=38379

[Silvertusk]

Lets hear what a catholic priest is taught about the coredemtrix teaching directly from his mouth.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.p ... Redemptrix


#2
Apr 29, '05, 10:27 am
Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 4,040
Re: Mary as Co-Redemptrix?
Dear Un,

The Church does not teach that we are redeemed by Mary. That would be heresy. It is important to realize that co-redemptrix does not mean co-equal. She co-operated in His mission of redeeming the world. He alone is the redeemer. She co-operated by the fact that the Father chose her to be the channel through which His Son entered the human race. She gave birth to Him and sustained Him through His childhood until adulthood. This is truly co-operation and this is all that is really meant by “co-redemptrix.” Because it is so easy to misunderstand this term, the Church has not made it an official title.

As for all the “Hail Marys” in the rosary, we are asking her to pray for us, but our thoughts are on the mysteries of her Son’s life. In repeating the words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you…,” we are only reiterating what the Father instructed the Angel Gabriel to say to her. They are God’s words.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Does not mean that Mary is divine - or that we have to pray to her - because lets face it she is dead. Or that we have to pray through anyone for that matter. God ripped the veil in the temple - there is no one standing between me and my God.

Sorry Silvertusk, but our God is the God of the living not of the dead. No one said there is anyone standing in front of you and God. Do you not pray for others and do you not ask others to pray for u ?
Do not the seraphim carry our prayers to the throne of God?
The bible that we both read says this much, and it also says the prayers of the righteous carry greater weight with The Lord.
Who is more righteous, us sinners here on earth or the angels and saints in heaven who have their sins and the effects of their sins taken away from them. You can't just follow the parts of scripture that you agree with and sis are the rest.
Did not ignatius of Antioch talk about the eucharist and call it the medicine of immortality? He was a student of John the apostle. Now who will u agree with, someone that personally knew the apostles and understand the interpretation of scripture as taught to them by the apostles or someone that came 1500 years after Christ. Ill take the students of the apostles any day as they were in the position to understand fully what the apostles meant instead of me personally interpreting it myself. I wanna know what the original Christians believed and were taught to worship by the apostles.
You know the apostles, the ones with the power to bind and loose?

What was ignatius of Antioch taught tobelieve?
What was polycarp taught to believe?
What was clement of Rome taught to believe?

And why do so many of our great appologists use their writings to show that the earliest Christiants believed in the divinity of Christ and ignore all of the other things they were taught?

What Iraneaus taught by the apostolic fathers?
What was Justin Martyr taught by the apostolic fathers?

It's almost like some people are allergic to some of their teachings and are not allergic to the rest of their teachings?
This is early Christian it's folks and I specifically mentioned these early Christians so no one would use the excuse that Christian it's was hijacked by Constantine 300 years later.

There are no saints in heaven, Not yet. Not until Judgement day. And even if they were they certainly do not have power to carry my prayers to God. That is just ludicrous. God does not need anyone to carry my prayers to him. He can hear my prayers fine and listens to them fine. Of course he may say No - but I do not need any dead saints to pray to to speak to God.

But I do have people praying for me - and they are alive and well on earth.

[RickD]

Silvertusk wrote:
There are no saints in heaven, Not yet. Not until Judgement day. And even if they were they certainly do not have power to carry my prayers to God. That is just ludicrous. God does not need anyone to carry my prayers to him. He can hear my prayers fine and listens to them fine. Of course he may say No - but I do not need any dead saints to pray to to speak to God.

But I do have people praying for me - and they are alive and well on earth.

Well, that's just too bad! Whether you like it or not, you're gonna have dead saints praying for you! For goodness sake! Don't you know Mary is the Queen of Heaven? And she's God's Mother, or is it God's wife(Oedipus complex perhaps?)

You Protestants are all alike! Our Catholic Mary is not equal to God! We put her on a pedestal, make her higher than other people, even call her sinless, perpetual virgin, Queen of Heaven, we pray to her(I know we don't call it prayer)etc. But never accuse us of saying she's equal to God! That's anathema!!!!

[Byblos]

Silvertusk wrote:
There are no saints in heaven, Not yet. Not until Judgement day. And even if they were they certainly do not have power to carry my prayers to God. That is just ludicrous. God does not need anyone to carry my prayers to him. He can hear my prayers fine and listens to them fine. Of course he may say No - but I do not need any dead saints to pray to to speak to God.

But I do have people praying for me - and they are alive and well on earth.

Well, that's just too bad! Whether you like it or not, you're gonna have dead saints praying for you! For goodness sake! Don't you know Mary is the Queen of Heaven? And she's God's Mother, or is it God's wife(Oedipus complex perhaps?)

You Protestants are all alike! Our Catholic Mary is not equal to God! We put her on a pedestal, make her higher than other people, even call her sinless, perpetual virgin, Queen of Heaven, we pray to her(I know we don't call it prayer)etc. But never accuse us of saying she's equal to God! That's anathema!!!!

Hallelujah, you're finally gettin' it Rick .

On a more serious note, this topic, like so many others, will always, ALWAYS, come down to a single denominator, and that being one of authority. I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point. The role I've adopted throughout my years on this site and anywhere else for that matter is one of clarity. I don't care one iota if I convince anyone of anything, that's not on my radar. My goal is to dispel misconceptions where I can. So long as there's no misunderstanding you can disagree all you want but don't disagree from ignorance, that's all. (and the 'you' is universal, not meant for you Rick ... specifically ).

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point.

I don't think I would. Just tell what translation you're using. Now maybe we would interpret scripture differently. That's possible. But to hold to certain dogmas without scriptural backing, that's another thing altogether. Like I asked before, where in the bible are we told to ask dead believers(saints, those alive in Christ, whatever you want to call them)to pray to Jesus for us? Where is the term "Queen of Heaven" in scripture?

My point is that the Catholic Church holds to dogmas that are not in scripture. Perpetual Virgin? Show me the scripture that backs this dogma. Then I can decide if your argument is scriptural, and others can decide for themselves.

If something is that important to be considered dogma, it must have scriptural backing.

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point.

I don't think I would. Just tell what translation you're using. Now maybe we would interpret scripture differently. That's possible. But to hold to certain dogmas without scriptural backing, that's another thing altogether. Like I asked before, where in the bible are we told to ask dead believers(saints, those alive in Christ, whatever you want to call them)to pray to Jesus for us? Where is the term "Queen of Heaven" in scripture?

My point is that the Catholic Church holds to dogmas that are not in scripture. Perpetual Virgin? Show me the scripture that backs this dogma. Then I can decide if your argument is scriptural, and others can decide for themselves.

If something is that important to be considered dogma, it must have scriptural backing.

Please check the links posted in this thread.
P.S. How many books do you have in your OT? If the answer is 66 then we are most certainly not using the same Bible.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point.

I don't think I would. Just tell what translation you're using. Now maybe we would interpret scripture differently. That's possible. But to hold to certain dogmas without scriptural backing, that's another thing altogether. Like I asked before, where in the bible are we told to ask dead believers(saints, those alive in Christ, whatever you want to call them)to pray to Jesus for us? Where is the term "Queen of Heaven" in scripture?

My point is that the Catholic Church holds to dogmas that are not in scripture. Perpetual Virgin? Show me the scripture that backs this dogma. Then I can decide if your argument is scriptural, and others can decide for themselves.

If something is that important to be considered dogma, it must have scriptural backing.

Please check the links posted in this thread.
P.S. How many books do you have in your OT? If the answer is 66 then we are most certainly not using the same Bible.

Holy Mary Mother of God, No! I only have 39 books in the OT in my bible. 66 in the entire bible, OT and NT. What are the other 27 books in the Catholic OT? I didn't think Catholics and regular Christian's bibles were that different.

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point.

I don't think I would. Just tell what translation you're using. Now maybe we would interpret scripture differently. That's possible. But to hold to certain dogmas without scriptural backing, that's another thing altogether. Like I asked before, where in the bible are we told to ask dead believers(saints, those alive in Christ, whatever you want to call them)to pray to Jesus for us? Where is the term "Queen of Heaven" in scripture?

My point is that the Catholic Church holds to dogmas that are not in scripture. Perpetual Virgin? Show me the scripture that backs this dogma. Then I can decide if your argument is scriptural, and others can decide for themselves.

If something is that important to be considered dogma, it must have scriptural backing.

Please check the links posted in this thread.
P.S. How many books do you have in your OT? If the answer is 66 then we are most certainly not using the same Bible.

Holy Mary Mother of God, No! I only have 39 books in the OT in my bible. 66 in the entire bible, OT and NT. What are the other 27 books in the Catholic OT? I didn't think Catholics and regular Christian's bibles were that different.

Lol, sorry Rick, I meant 66 in all of it. Either way, the missing books would be entirely from the OT anyway. But come on, you know what I meant. You have 39 in your OT, mine has 46.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
I can show you scriptural support all day long but you will accuse me of not using a bible version you approve of so exactly what's the point.

I don't think I would. Just tell what translation you're using. Now maybe we would interpret scripture differently. That's possible. But to hold to certain dogmas without scriptural backing, that's another thing altogether. Like I asked before, where in the bible are we told to ask dead believers(saints, those alive in Christ, whatever you want to call them)to pray to Jesus for us? Where is the term "Queen of Heaven" in scripture?

My point is that the Catholic Church holds to dogmas that are not in scripture. Perpetual Virgin? Show me the scripture that backs this dogma. Then I can decide if your argument is scriptural, and others can decide for themselves.

If something is that important to be considered dogma, it must have scriptural backing.

Please check the links posted in this thread.
P.S. How many books do you have in your OT? If the answer is 66 then we are most certainly not using the same Bible.

Holy Mary Mother of God, No! I only have 39 books in the OT in my bible. 66 in the entire bible, OT and NT. What are the other 27 books in the Catholic OT? I didn't think Catholics and regular Christian's bibles were that different.

Lol, sorry Rick, I meant 66 in all of it. Either way, the missing books would be entirely from the OT anyway. But come on, you know what I meant. You have 39 in your OT, mine has 46.

Yes I knew what you meant. I'ze just playin.
Like you said, the only extra books are OT anyways. For the sake of the discussion, we'll just ignore your extra books. That's the only fair way to do it, right?

Who really looks at the OT anyways? Too many begats and begots. Unless you're saying all scriptural proof of Catholic dogma is only in those seven books, then it really doesn't matter that much, does it? Of course if you quoted me from Maccabees, that Mary is a forever virgin, or she's Queen of Heaven, then we would have a problem discussing that. But I'm sure your scriptural support is not only in those seven books. Can't we just use scripture we agree on?

[Byblos]

Unless you're saying all scriptural proof of Catholic dogma is only in those seven books, then it really doesn't matter that much, does it?

Of course not all but some anyway.

Of course if you quoted me from Maccabees, that Mary is a forever virgin, or she's Queen of Heaven, then we would have a problem discussing that.

No, but from Maccabees I can definitely quote you scripture that says we can pray for the dead. If I did and before we go on to another subject would you concede the point?

But I'm sure your scriptural support is not only in those seven books. Can't we just use scripture we agree on?

No we can't, because Catholic theology is based on the totality of scripture, OT+ and NT. Case in point, do you know where the Mary is the new Eve doctrine starts? Hint: all the way back in the beginning.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:
No, but from Maccabees I can definitely quote you scripture that says we can pray for the dead. If I did and before we go on to another subject would you concede the point?

Wow, I didn't figure in this monkey wrench.

How can I concede this? I would have to concede that Maccabees is part of inerrant scripture. Do you really expect me to do that? You might as well hand me a scarlet red robe, and rosary beads.

No we can't, because Catholic theology is based on the totality of scripture, OT+ and NT. Case in point, do you know where the Mary is the new Eve doctrine starts? All the way back in Genesis.

I have no problem with you trying to make a case for something from Genesis. I don't necessarily have a problem with a comparison between Eve and Mary anyways.

[Byblos]

Byblos wrote:
No, but from Maccabees I can definitely quote you scripture that says we can pray for the dead. If I did and before we go on to another subject would you concede the point?

Wow, I didn't figure in this monkey wrench.

How can I concede this? I would have to concede that Maccabees is part of inerrant scripture. Do you really expect me to do that? You might as well hand me a scarlet red robe, and rosary beads.

Well there you go, how do you expect me to answer your charge of scriptural support (or lack of) when we can't even agree on what scripture is? Hence, my earlier prediction that this and any other discussion of this nature with Catholics will always come down to a question of authority, period.

No we can't, because Catholic theology is based on the totality of scripture, OT+ and NT. Case in point, do you know where the Mary is the new Eve doctrine starts? All the way back in Genesis.

I have no problem with you trying to make a case for something from Genesis. I don't necessarily have a problem with a comparison between Eve and Mary anyways.

Very well then, please see my post in the other thread. And I promise you, no quoting scripture from the 7 books that were dropped from the OT.