The Law

[RickD]

So theres no freewill in freedom and liberty? Hmmm... and by that logic, your not-not keeping the law unless you break all of the law... see the issue?

No. Speaka da Engrish please.
Since I'm not trying to live by the OT law, then I can't say I'm failing to keèp it.

[RickD]

Are you keeping it(the law)? Remember, if you fail in one place, you fail at keeping the law. Trying to keep the law is not the same as keeping the law. Choosing parts of the law that one thinks pertains to him, isn't keeping the law. The law is a complete package. Either you keep it all, or you aren't keeping the law.

The Law also says not to steal... Exodus 20:15. So if you fail to keep this part of law, that means you don't have to follow it anymore??

I don't follow the OT Law, Gman. So I don't see your point. The only biblical law I follow is Christ's law to love God and my neighbor.(And I fail miserably at that). Thank God I rely on Christ's work, not my own ability.

And btw, was stealing wrong before the law was given? Isn't "do not steal" part of loving my neighbor? So, if I'm living according to the spirit, and loving my neighbor, will I steal from him? Do I need the law to tell me not to treat my neighbor badly, when I have The Holy Spirit of God dwelling within me? I hope you're not implying that one can't be a believer if one doesn't have access to OT scripture, in order to know what the Law is.

[Gman]

How the law is a love message is beyond me.

G, you are not digesting what is being passed to you. You have not covered what J said. He went to a great deal to show his point. You are jumping back in denial.

Denial of what?? Ignorance on his part?

Yes that reward is spelled out in Deuteronomy 28

And immediately after is the reward for not keeping the law.

Take these words G, "Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. " what is this? a love message?

If you want to call G-d's commandments and judgements non-loving ways, that is an issue you might want to bring up with Him on judgement day.

The truth is the law is good for those who can keep it....newsflash no one can. If the law was good for sinners, man would have been saved. But Christ came to do what the law can NEVER do. The law brings death, because sin earns death. You say God's commandments are not curses. well they bring the curses on nonetheless. READ THE ABOVE LINES CAREFULLY. DO THEY NOT BRING CURSE. They become a curse to a man who is already fallen. And fallen we all are.

Incorrect... Paul here is not advocating that the Torah can't be obeyed perfectly, rather that someone who takes a legalistic interpretation of the Torah violates at least one of the commandments and thus come under a curse. Following Torah (or you say the law) DOES expect disobedience but makes explicit provision for it by mentioning sin offerings for offenses and thus avoiding a curse. As an example look at King David who committed adultery and murder. Nevertheless G-d forgave him after he repented 2 Sam 11:1-12:25; Psalms 32, 51. So there is a way out.. And that also came through Christ.

Therefore, even though they can bring curses, there is ALWAYS a way out of them and that true way is CHRIST!! But that gives us no right to throw His commandments under the bus either.

The law is based on your actions. Grace is based on Christ's actions. You can call grace theology, crapology. btw I assume you will the first one to get teary eyed if the same was said of torah. The jews of the time of Christ held a similar opinion. They thought free grace was crap too. And they crucified the man who promoted it. Free grace does not make an iota sense from the law's side. Its frightening at times. You lose all definitions of love, right, wrong and etc. You only have the spirit of God and you become a child of God. That is it basically. Either the law saves or it doesn't. either the law brings curse or it doesn't, either the law is good or it isn't. But all of this is dwarfed in Christ's presence. He IS the visible likeness of the invisible God. No law has that position.

So according to your epiphany of logic, since Christ came, we destroy all of G-d's laws and covenants now? You have absolutely no sound scripture to back this worthless idea up... We are saved by His grace, no one would deny that. But we still keep following His laws for direction.. Not following every spirit as you think.. The Bible is very clear that we are to TEST the spirit.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How?? By studying G-d's word... THAT WAS GIVEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Also, the Law identified sin in our lives.. But it is NOT sin itself to follow as Paul clearly states..

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

The law is imperfect, period. The only perfection is God himself. All scripture is good...as you mean, not a portion...ALL OF IT. Then please read the above passage of Deuteronomy and pray tell me, is this good too and should this be enforced upon as well? You can't answer this by the way. You will have to navigate around this to get back to point. And I will save you the time too.

You are incorrect again... You can't refute scripture. It IS good. ALL of it... You only believe a small portion of it... And what little you have you twist it to your own meanings...

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

Would you like God destroying you? I mean you hold strictly to...all scripture is good, right? Even if it ends up having gay people stoned and prostitutes stoned and witches burnt and Sabbath breakers to be put to death? No matter how much you don't like this...This is part of the law. And as timothy said...All scripture is Good, so therefore this is good too.

Of course no one would not want to be destroyed by G-d. But He is also a just G-d, so He has to do what brings forth justice... Also you are taking things out of context of the law... Stoning does not apply outside the land or without the Sanhedrin. Deuteronomy 16:18-20, Deuteronomy 17:2, 8-13.

You are only following the law because you like to. You are completely missing the point. You want to defend the law on grounds which can not be possibly defended while being consistent.

Its not upto you to decide what you follow. Either you follow ALL the law and get all the rewards...OR...you don't follow all the law and are cursed by the law...OR You follow none and walk in grace. Or you can walk in grace and also try to fulfill the law as much as you can and promote, which you do...but then get down from the high horse and not paint the law as the focus, don't make it sound something which it is not. The law is what it is, you can't change that. Christ is the focus. Grace is what it is and no one can change that either. The law isn't legalism, but to follow it as a code for God's approval is. And while in theory there is a difference, practically there is hardly any difference. Those who promote following the law, also believe not following it is sin too. Thus they indirectly bring in legalism. Don't sin, don't eat that or this and etc. In Christ these things mean nothing.

You have chosen the law as you see fit to follow. This is also a violation by your own standards. It is grace only which saves you from the curse that the law brings.

Incorrect again... We are saved FROM the curse... How do I know that?

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Romans 5:6-8 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God's law:
Brings rewards...good and bad both
It is a blessing to the good...curse to the sinner
It can not punish the perfect man, there is no perfect man, except Christ.
The law isn't perfect, because if it would, the commandment of life would not transform into a death sentence for me.
Christ is perfect and in him we are saints.
We are the children of God...we will NOT BECOME children of God. WE ARE. That is the reality. And you don't get wings, you are a saint, not an angel.

That is why we follow G-d's commandments. Because we are G-d's children. Why did Christ say??? If we truly love Him, then follow HIS commandments.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

My personal humble opinion, no offense intended...your hermenuetics need help. You seem to be following the route of systematic theology. Ignore context, join up verses build a case. Call it settled.

Likewise.. Your hermenuetics defies all logic... But much worse... It begs for the destruction of G-d's commandments for us.. A very very serious matter for you.

[Gman]

I don't follow the OT Law, Gman. So I don't see your point. The only biblical law I follow is Christ's law to love God and my neighbor.(And I fail miserably at that). Thank God I rely on Christ's work, not my own ability.

And btw, was stealing wrong before the law was given? Isn't "do not steal" part of loving my neighbor? So, if I'm living according to the spirit, and loving my neighbor, will I steal from him? Do I need the law to tell me not to treat my neighbor badly, when I have The Holy Spirit of God dwelling within me? I hope you're not implying that one can't be a believer if one doesn't have access to OT scripture, in order to know what the Law is.

Well that's too bad for then if you want to divorce yourself from following G-d's commandments. 2 Tim 3:16 clearly states that ALL SCRIPTURE is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. But if you want to "wing it" I hope the best for you... Seriously amigo.

Also don't forget... If you say that the Holy Spirit guides you.. The Holy Spirit is also the one who wrote the entire Bible so you might not want to toss it away or say that it doesn't apply to you anymore..

2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

And... Don't forget to TEST the spirits.. Not believe everything that someone tells you... Don't "free grace" your mind away..

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Now go to bed...

Gman is getting tired..

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
And... Don't forget to TEST the spirits.. Not believe everything that someone tells you... Don't "free grace" your mind away..

That's classic!!!

Also don't forget... If you say that the Holy Spirit guides you.. The Holy Spirit is also the one who wrote the entire Bible so you might not want to toss it away or say that it doesn't apply to you anymore..

I just tossed away my Old Testament. I found out from Byblos that it was missing 7 books. I'm going back to Books a Million to get a refund.

Gman is getting tired..

Tired? It's only 7:30 in the state of Confusion.

[Gman]

Gman wrote:
And... Don't forget to TEST the spirits.. Not believe everything that someone tells you... Don't "free grace" your mind away..

That's classic!!!

LOL... Hey, if you don't believe me, just look what happened to Mr. Bean after he took some of that "Free Grace" theology into his brain.. It's FREEEEEE..... We have no clue what it is... But it's FREEEE...

Tired? It's only 7:30 in the state of Confusion.

Tell me about it amigo...

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
And... Don't forget to TEST the spirits.. Not believe everything that someone tells you... Don't "free grace" your mind away..

That's classic!!!

LOL... Hey, if you don't believe me, just look what happened to Mr. Bean after he took some of that "Free Grace" theology into his brain.. It's FREEEEEE..... We have no clue what it is... But it's FREEEE...

Tired? It's only 7:30 in the state of Confusion.

Tell me about it amigo...

Actually, I think that's a picture of Mr. Bean after he tried to follow the 613 Old Testament laws.

As a matter of fact, he was just told he couldn't eat bacon.

[Gman]

As a matter of fact, he was just told he couldn't eat bacon.

Actually.. This is what happened to Mr. Bean after he ate that toxic pork..

[zacchaeus]

So wait keeping any of the law is bad... Scripture please? And so keeping any of the law constitutes living by it? Are the comandments a part or the law? Do you follow or break them? Why?

[RickD]

So wait keeping any of the law is bad... Scripture please? And so keeping any of the law constitutes living by it? Are the comandments a part or the law? Do you follow or break them? Why?

Zacchaeus, basically I'm saying if we as believers live by the spirit, we will keep Christ's law to love God and our neighbor. All Gods laws are summed up in "love God, and love one's neighbor". I'm not saying we as believers go around purposely breaking all laws because we are not under the law. If we love God and our neighbor by living by the spirit, we will actually obey 9 of the 10 commandments, without even striving to specifically obey them. And the commandment of remembering the Sabbath, is actually kept when we rest in Christ, who is a believer's true Sabbath rest.

I hope that helps.

[jlay]

So wait keeping any of the law is bad... Scripture please? And so keeping any of the law constitutes living by it? Are the comandments a part or the law? Do you follow or break them? Why?

This is a question begging proposition.
It begs the question that the Law, and keeping it is the measure of holiness today. But Paul addresses believers, even one's with terrible behavior problems, as "Saints." Do you understand that the word "Saint" is the exact same Greek word as "Holy." Exactly the SAME.

Yes, in this sense keeping the law constitutes living by it. That is exaclty what is being advocated. The problem is that no one is really keeping the Law. No one. The OT law is clear in its requirements and punishments. So, one applies their interpretitive leanings to select what and how they will "keep" it. And thus this creates a self-righteousness legalists. It says the Law is the measure of holiness and how one is "loving" God. It's been said over and over.

You see it's a loaded question. That is why G keeps accusing, "You are saying its OK to__________?!?!" Or, accusing us of saying that grace is a license to sin. We aren't. Grace is the rescue from sin (all of it) and condemnation. It is because we are Holy that we can live Holy. Not because we are being measured any longer by an external standard. There really is NO condemnation. It really is ALL forgiven. This is identity. You really are a NEW creature. And living holy is a matter of mind set. Knowing who we are "In Christ." Be not conformed any longer, but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND. Then........you will be able to test and approve the will of God.

What is sin for the believer? Breaking rules for which there is now no condemnation for breaking? (Romans 8:1) No, it is living contrary to our identity "In Christ."
What do we have when we trust Christ?
-Forgiveness. How much? All or some? Complete forgiveness. (Well, not according to Gman, as I'll show in a moment.)
-We receieve His righteousness. How much? All of it. We are "hid in Christ."
-We are NEW creatures in Christ.
-Now, how much of that did we accomplish? None. Not one iota. Christ did it all, and it was credited to our account when we believed in Him. We didn't work for any of it. Romans 4:5
The word says we were baptized into Christ by the Spirit. Done deal.
Our identity is new. It is a 100% reality. It is obvious that we have some here who don't trust that this is the case. They think that holiness is not our new identity, but that we must fulfill the law to be Holy.

G says that our forgiveness is conditional. That we are to judge our salvation on David's life and not in light of the cross work of Christ. I ask where does it say in 2 Sam. 11:1-12:25 that David's eternal justification was conditional on his repentance? Answer, it doesn't. It never says that. It says that David's lament and fast was that the child might live. The child didn't. David's sin had real consequences. It says that David suffered temporal consequences for his deeds, but never once mentions anything regarding his eternal state. God is not negotiating our salvation with us based on the Law. He fulfilled the law.

Are you a saint? God says you are.
Gman earlier blantantly denied who the scripture says we are. He denied Paul's claim that we are NOT in the flesh. I mean he blatantly denied this scriptural truth to defend legalism.

What legalists do is deny who the believer is "In Christ." It says, you aren't Holy. It says you are in the flesh. It says you are a slave to the Law. It says you are a sinner. It says you must/should try to live up to an outside moral standard.

Paul went to exhaustive links to lay out the case, much like a lawyer, and yet people twist his words to place believers under the Law.

[zacchaeus]

Jlay, I think you've totally missed the context of the conversation. You and Rick both don't realize we all three agree...

This goes back to an old conversation about tattoos and lev 19:28. For me its a personal conviction. Our bodies are temples, and don't belong to us. Without going into lengthy debate- your position is I'm trying to keep the law by not having tattoos, yet if you don't have tattoos then its not because your living by the law- to me its an observation. The LAW is good, we cannot try and blame the law- its HOLY!!! The law isn't sin Rom 7:12. The law doesn't measure holiness... we are equal in Christ, no more then ones sin over anothers sin, say you stole and I killed! You say I have to keep every law, my response is just as ridiculous you would have to break every law- hence the issue!!! I say we have freedom and liberty in the Spirit- even when we chose to sin (not that we should, but in the struggle we all do) we know that Grace covers that. Grace covers ALL.

Would we know any sin or come to repentance of it if it weren't for the law? What about when God said "Do not eat"?

I'm not your enemies here guys.

[jlay]

"One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." Romans 14:7
In this discussion, I have no doubt that G is fully convinced in his own mind that a believer should follow the Law. And he should have no doubt that I am fully convinced otherwise. But I don’t see this verse speaking to that issue, and I will explain why. What you mention regarding tattoos, however, does fit the verse. Personal conviction about a behavior, choice, or an action.

This goes back to an old conversation about tattoos and lev 19:28. For me its a personal conviction. Our bodies are temples, and don't belong to us. Without going into lengthy debate- your position is I'm trying to keep the law by not having tattoos, yet if you don't have tattoos then its not because your living by the law- to me its an observation. The LAW is good, we cannot try and blame the law- its HOLY!!! The law isn't sin Rom 7:12. The law doesn't measure holiness... we are equal in Christ, no more than ones sin over anothers sin, say you stole and I killed! You say I have to keep every law, my response is just as ridiculous you would have to break every law- hence the issue!!! I say we have freedom and liberty in the Spirit- even when we chose to sin (not that we should, but in the struggle we all do) we know that Grace covers that. Grace covers ALL.

Would we know any sin or come to repentance of it if it weren't for the law? What about when God said "Do not eat"?

If you have a personal conviction not to get a tattoo, then I wouldn’t say you are trying to keep the law. That is certainly a possibility, but not necessarily the case. That is NOT the issue of the thread. The issue is whether the Law is the prescriptive means of Holy living for the believer. I also have a personal conviction not to get a tattoo. I would also say there are many personal convictions I hold that would line up with the Law. And there are things forbidden in the Law that I do not hold a personal conviction to uphold. If I got a tattoo would I be violating Israel’s Law? No. Obviously, if I have a moral aversion to tattoos, and I get one anyway, then I have transgressed my conscience, and thus have sinned. The Law of Israel does not accommodate that liberty.

You are correct, we would not know sin except by the law, the natural root of which is etched on the human conscience. In other words, moral discernment. Here is a question: Is stealing wrong because the Law says so, or does the Law say so, because it is wrong? I would say the former and the later. The Law deals with moral truth, but that is not all it deals with. It was wrong to kill before the Law was given. And the Law was given at a specific time for a specific people.
Is eating shell fish a violation of natural morality? No, but God forbade the Israelites to eat such. So, since it was forbidden, disobeying the authority of God was the moral infraction. If God says don't eat of the tree, then it is the violation of the decree that brings the sin. It isn't as if the act of eating is sinful. However, murder is wrong inherently. Eating fruit from a tree is not. I would look at the Sabbath the same way. Unlike murder, stealing, adultery, the Sabbath day doesn’t have a natural moral relationship to the human conscience. But God decreed it for Israel, and how it should be held. So to break the Sabbath was to transgress the governance of God. At some point in this thread, something was said(regarding the Sabbath) to the effect, "Are you saying that it is bad for man to rest?" As if holding the anti-nomian position is saying that it isn't good to rest, or take a day off. That is a strawman. To invoke the Sabbath in this way is to manipulate the law. Some of the Torah is consistent with inherent moral truths (don't steal) and some not (remember the Sabbath).

It is interesting that Paul said, “The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent.” (Acts 17:30) What is it that God overlooked? In essence it was the idolatry of the Gentiles in the audience. But not in the sense that they were breaking the 2nd Command. The issue was salvaiton. They were not savable because they were in violation of a practical truth. Their false Gods and Goddesses were the product of their ignorance regarding the one true God. Paul is now informing them that there is one true God, so that now they are without excuse. They need to repent. That is they need to forsake that foolish thinking and embrace the truth. Then and only then can they be saved. After all, you can’t be saved if you think Jehovah is just another higher being on Olympus.

There are practical elements throughout the Law that people, even who don't even believe in God, will follow. Do not murder. That's because it is morally right based on nature and nature’s God. Murder is wrong, and the Law rightly affirms this truth. But the Law, for Israel, was not simply a command not to do something. It was also a governance for a people group chosen by God to bring forth His plans on the Earth. (The Kingdom) There are also elements in the law, which are not inherently obvious, that were specifically given regarding the economy of Israel. For one, the punishments for violating those laws. For example, there is certainly an element of rest contained within Sabbath. But that is not really the reason for the Sabbath. The Sabbath and its penalty had a very specific purpose for Israel. Do I feel any personal conviction, today, that those who don’t keep the Sabbath should be stoned to death? No. Yet, I do understand why God issued such a harsh penalty, to those UNDER the Law, for trespassing this command. Especially in relation to His purposes in Israel.

Next example. I have a personal conviction not to steal. But I don’t have a personal conviction to stone a thief and his entire family to death for stealing. See Achan in Joshua. But I do understand that in the economy of Israel, one man’s disobedience was not simply one man’s disobedience. It was the violation of the corporate covenant with God. The entire nation was defeated because of the individual transgression. Israel sinned. That is NOT how God is dealing with man today. If I sin today, it doesn’t mean that all of the Body of Christ sinned. And therefore we are going to lose a battle against the Midianites. That is what it is to be under the Law. We can’t segregate, or amend it to accommodate our religious preferences. But that is exactly what is happening in the pro-Messianic movement.

Let’s make it clear. Unlike Gman implies, I agree with EVERYTHING The scripture says about the Law. EVERYTHING. What I don’t agree with is his eisegesis regarding when, how and to whom the Law applies today. All of the scripture is written to us. Not all of it is written for us. Edification is different than application. And in that regard I see Paul's ministry revealing that God is NOT dealing with man today through the Law. The Law is not something a Christian should keep, or observe as a method of Christian living. Why? It is outside. The new Nature is within.

Gman quotes the Psalms in stating the Law is perfect. (Psalm 19:7) Is that true. Yes. Perfect in what sense? Well, let’s consider that verse in light of the progressive revelation. “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” (Heb. 8:7)
Is this verse saying that the Law was wrong? No. Is this in contradiction with what David said? No. The Law dealt practically with, and governed a people who were not perfect. (Heb. 7:28)
So what was David saying? Well for one, He is speaking as one of the covenant people. And he is speaking in a very poetic voice. This isn’t a “thus declares the Lord” scripture. He says it is perfect, converting the soul. So, does that mean that we proof text this poetic verse and then casually throw it into an argument where Hebrews and Romans is addressig the matter in a legal sense? No. But that is what is Gman is doing.

Grace is not a license to sin. And being an anti-nomian is not advocating murder, theft, or any other sinful behavior. If someone considers one day over another for their own edification, then I say go for it. But that is certainly not the context of what is going on here.

[zacchaeus]

I must be lost in translation then and must not have kept up with the content, intent, or context of what is really going on lol,

I attest to keeping the law is not by any means a measure by which God tires nor tests our heart...
Maybe I was a bit confusing in mixing terms like "keeping" and "observing".
Again, what I read in scripture the law is good, it is holy, it can and does teach. Ramifications may seem extreme, and yes would in fact be impossible, but it was so from the get go, nobody could "keep" perfect the law- only JESUS!!! The lifestyle would be abnormal but no different then viewing anothers living environment, especially other countries. The Nature of God Has Never Changed. The Basic Nature and Needs of Man Have Never Changed. We should realize that Old Testament laws are not binding, but there is still much that we can learn from the Old Testament. Can the law save? No, Christ does... Can we keep the law for means of atonement? No, Christ does... Does it make us righteous, keep us holy? No, Christ does... Is the law wrong, unjust, bad, or sinful? Not hardly. I agree practical applications are evident. Thanks for your lengthy exhortation. Peace, joy, love brother...

[jlay]

Zac, I understand. And please know I'm not picking a fight. But when you say, we basically agree, I have to....disagree.

I would not distinquish the terms observe or keep. If you have a defense of this I haven't considered I am glad to listen.
I agree we can learn from the OT laws. However I strongly disagree when you say the OT laws are not binding.
The OT Law was absolutely binding. Israel was bound to the Law. The Law was their covenant.

I hope I'm not reading you wrong, but your "observe" seems to imply that for some reason the OT laws were binding, and then at Christ's death.....Well, if you want to keep the Law so be it. Some of it, OK. None of it, sure.