RickD wrote:
Water baptism is biblically correct. It's just not required for salvation.
Again Rick your offering your own opinion. Your also making yourself the sole authority of what is required for salvation and what is not. The Catholic Church also says that the baptism of desire is saving too so in a way I agree with you, but again I ask you do you believe in what the early Christians believed? Yes or no?
RickD wrote:
That verse is not referring to water baptism. Look at the context. John 3:4-7
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [c]again.
The verse is talking about being born again. Born once naturally(of water). And born again(by the spirit).
This is not promoting water baptism for salvation.
Again Rick this is your opinion, your personal interpretation. Did the Holy Spirit give you the authority to interpret that verse in your way? And again I ask you how did you get that revelation ? If every person can claim that they have the authority to interpret scripture according to their own personal opinions then how come we have thousand of different opinions , and how can the Holy Spirit lead Christians into this chaotic state. It makes no sense rationally and it isn't what the early church fathers were taught either.
Your standing on very flimsy ground here Rick .
RickD wrote:
The Catholic Church of today, is NOT the same as Christ's original church.
The Catholic Church of today believes in a hierarchal structure, apostolic succession, the eucharist, authoritative interpretation (binding and loosing).
The same foundation that our church has today and that is what was passed down to them by the apostolic fathers who received it directly from the apostles who received their teachings from Christ himself . Sure there are many doctrines that have been more fully defined but that does t make te basic structure of the church any different in the last 2000 years.
By your argument the early Church in the first and 2nd century wasnt the same as the church of the 4th century because the doctrine of the trinity wasnt fully defined until the. 4th century. Do you see how nonsensical that sounds?
For you to claim this you would need to have a revelation from God in which he spoke to you and said "Rick, all doctrines from scripture were given from me to my apostles to be fully defined in the first century, which is ludicrous since the doctrine of the trinity itself wasn't fully defined until 250 to 300 years after Christ.
Some doctrines such as purgatory weren't fully defined until the 8th century. It doesn't mean they are unbiblical .
RickD wrote:
Bippy, there has always been one church. Those who have faith in Christ for their salvation. Those are the church.
Rick, again I ask you
1. Do you believe in fullness of Christs teachings that were given to the apostles and passed down to the apostolic fathers. The fullness of Christs word, not just in written form but orally. If not then You only believe in Christs written word and not the oral tradition that was passed down from the apostles onward. Do you believe that you have the authority to interpret scripture personally or do you believe in Christs full word that he gave the power to bind and loose not to every Tom , **** or Harry but to Peter along with his disciples.
Here we go again with sola scriptura.
Scripture alone wasnt practiced until 1500 years after Christ.
It is scripture and sacred tradition.
Here are some early Church fathers teachings on water baptism .
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
Tradition / Church Fathers
I. “Born Again” Means Water Baptism
For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow...And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).
"Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,--as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." Theopilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
RickD wrote:
Not for salvation.
Rick if you want to ignore the writings of the early Church fathers that is really up to you . Do you fully practice what the earliest Christians were taught to practice. Justin Martyr was a very early Church father and he knew the apostolic fathers so he was in the position to fully know what the apostolic fathers preaches, and the apostolic fathers studied directly from the apostles.
Again I ask you Rick, do you believe what the earliest Christian swere taught to believe or do you interpret the bible according to your own personal beliefs?
Is this the belief of the historic Christians or the beliefs of the reformers who came 1500 years after Christ. The bible does t interpret itself , it needs an authoritative interpreter or else there is chaos and thousands of different Churches each with their own personal interpretation.
As for me ill go with the authoritative interpretation that was given directly from Christ.
Comments fueled by anger are always ridiculous.
