The Law

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
That said, and to further discussion, does that mean each believer is responsible for their own "education" in regards to the Gospel?

Ultimately, yes, because through my faith in Christ I am saved. But I also believe we have a responsibility to teach others about the Gospel, as The Lord leads us.
I'm not sure if I answered what you were getting at though.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
That said, and to further discussion, does that mean each believer is responsible for their own "education" in regards to the Gospel?

Ultimately, yes, because through my faith in Christ I am saved. But I also believe we have a responsibility to teach others about the Gospel, as The Lord leads us.
I'm not sure if I answered what you were getting at though.

I think so.
My question is:
Does the responsibility of understanding the gospel fall on each believer or is it "ok" to be TOLD by another what the gospel yes?
IMO, I think that each believer should be responsible for his or hers understanding of the Gospel.
I don't think that each believer can/should be a theologian BUT I think that taking someone else word for what the Gospel is or isn't is NOT what a believer should do.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
That said, and to further discussion, does that mean each believer is responsible for their own "education" in regards to the Gospel?

Ultimately, yes, because through my faith in Christ I am saved. But I also believe we have a responsibility to teach others about the Gospel, as The Lord leads us.
I'm not sure if I answered what you were getting at though.

I think so.
My question is:
Does the responsibility of understanding the gospel fall on each believer or is it "ok" to be TOLD by another what the gospel yes?
IMO, I think that each believer should be responsible for his or hers understanding of the Gospel.
I don't think that each believer can/should be a theologian BUT I think that taking someone else word for what the Gospel is or isn't is NOT what a believer should do.

Paul, how would you have known what the Gospel is if someone didn't tell you?

Should we take the word of what the Gospel is from every professing pope, priest, or pastor. I think a good example is shown in Acts 17:11:
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


If someone tells us something, especially if they claim it's the Gospel, we should examine scripture to see if it's true.

[zacchaeus]

I think this thread is on verge of confusion... Is it the position then by our own understanding that we will be enlightened by the Spirit, Whom gives all wisdom so our efforts aren't contradictory?

Scripture in light of this seems to support studying 'ourselves' approved!!!

[Gman]

This makes for an interesting READ...

http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/ ... fmoses.htm

Excellent article.
He makes so very valid points.
In the end, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves base don their own understanding.
IF our salvation is based on following the bible to the best of our understanding, do you want to leave that understanding ( and salvation) to someone elses interpretation and understanding of scripture?

Yes Paul.
Matthew 27:50-51:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the [a]veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

With the tearing of the veil, the way of access to God was opened and made available to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ. Every believer in Jesus can come directly to God through His shed blood. We do not need any priest, pope, church leader, or intermediary. The way has been opened for every believer.

There is only one word I can attribute to that article... BUNK... Again, G-d's commandments are NOT legalism. Can people turn them into legalism??? Of course they can... In fact you can turn any commandment into legalism.

I have absolutely no clue why this is such a hard concept to understand.. Again. G-d's commandments are not legalistic evil plots to destroy you... They are UNITY.. If we follow them correctly, they are actually good as 1 Tim 1:8 clearly states..

1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends.

[Gman]

I think we're going to change your screen name from "Gman" to "Straw man". G, nobody is advocating, "Do whatever you like".

Yes you are.. If you believe that anyone should be convinced in their own mind depart of any of G-d's commandments, you are creating division in the body..

G, some people hold Saturday as more holy than the other days. Some people think Sunday is more important. Others believe all days are alike. Seems like scripture is crystal clear on that.

G, the Sabbath laws ultimately pointed forward to Christ, because He is our Sabbath rest. Since Christ came, He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath laws, and He is our Sabbath. Your saying that all believers have to worship on the Sabbath(without being convinced in one's own mind), is actually promoting the idea that Christ failed at what He came to do. Gman, by preaching that believers must observe the Sabbath, you are denying Christ's work, and are preaching a different gospel.

No Rick... You can take the commandment and say it doesn't apply, but if you understand that G-d gave it to UNIFY people together then you would understand there is no problem with it. If we teach another day, we are teaching division something Christ told us NOT to do...

24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom can’t survive; 25 and if a household is divided against itself, that household can’t survive.

And we should NOT let others judge us when we worship on a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day either.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

[B. W.]

For those of you who do not know, I once was involved in establishing a Messianic Jewish Congregation. So I know a bit about these.

Within the Messianic Movement, there are many differing groups. Each has its own course it follows. You can class them in groups so as Hypo, Moderate, and Hyper groups and within these groups there are many variations and degrees between each group. The link provided gives a good description of what I mean so take the time read.

http://www.messianicjudaism.me/musings/ ... regations/

After reading this thread and following it, I am concerned. Why - let me give you an example, the group I was part of that established a Messianic Jewish Congregation during the mid 1980’s began well. It would be what the article mentions as a Blended Messianic Congregation.

This group began well but suddenly became what the article next mentions as a One Law Synagogue type some time after I left. It went from a well balanced group to a very legalist group. I left early before they slipped into and slid from grace into Torah Legalism. I saw firsthand how it shipwrecked many friends lives and by 2003 or 04 failed and is no longer there, thankfully.

I know the hallmarks and the language of such groups. Sadly, I see it here. Let me state that the majority of Messianic Jewish Congregations do not fall into this group. Most I know of now, fit the Blended Messianic Congregation type.

Why do I bring this up? Because it causes me grief to see good people fall into that Torah legalism cr-p. I counseled my friends who were hurt by it and know firsthand what they went through. Thankfully, they have returned to the Church and found balanced Church groups but it was a tuff go for them.

Well, my friend Gman – it looks like you are falling into a variation of a One Law Synagogue type group. Please consider that in complete kindness I mention this to you publically as an example for the readers to learn from – such type group (as evidenced by your comments here) stains the good groups within the Messianic Movement. Let readers know that there are good groups out there and we should not stereotype a movement by one group’s oddities. Gman, your group probably, like the one I was with began okay and like them, slipped somewhere and now what Paul stated in Galatians applies here:

Galatians 5:4-6, " You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." NKJV

I hate to see you go through another bit of turmoil. Remember Jesus the bible speaks of and his grace that will lead you home. I am afraid you may be heading for one rough ride and a crash, like so many before you went through in those One Law groups. Jesus the Messiah is really real and following the strict letter of the law in any form, or twisted reason that distorts grace, does not make you nor keeps you right in God’s sight. With that - a short prayer: So may the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, open your eyes to see where you are heading before the cliff brings forth its fall…

Love ya bro…


B. W. Melvin
Author/Speaker
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[Gman]

Why do I bring this up? Because it causes me grief to see good people fall into that Torah legalism cr-p. I counseled my friends who were hurt by it and know firsthand what they went through. Thankfully, they have returned to the Church and found balanced Church groups but it was a tuff go for them.

Well, my friend Gman – it looks like you are falling into a variation of a One Law Synagogue type group. Please consider that in complete kindness I mention this to you publically as an example for the readers to learn from – such type group (as evidenced by your comments here) stains the good groups within the Messianic Movement. Let readers know that there are good groups out there and we should not stereotype a movement by one group’s oddities. Gman, your group probably, like the one I was with began okay and like them, slipped somewhere and now what Paul stated in Galatians applies here:

Galatians 5:4-6, " You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." NKJV

I hate to see you go through another bit of turmoil. Remember Jesus the bible speaks of and his grace that will lead you home. I am afraid you may be heading for one rough ride and a crash, like so many before you went through in those One Law groups. Jesus the Messiah is really real and following the strict letter of the law in any form, or twisted reason that distorts grace, does not make you nor keeps you right in God’s sight. With that - a short prayer: So may the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, open your eyes to see where you are heading before the cliff brings forth its fall…

I'm sorry... But I'm going to disagree with you on this Bryan... Of course anyone can take G-d's commandments and turn them into legalism. But G-d's commandments themselves are not legalism. If we understand them from our spirit filled life, we understand them as bringing UNITY to the body... Not division. Sanctification NOT salvation...Unfortunately it is becoming very clear to me that most Christians understand G-d's commandments ONLY as being legalistic means to attain salvation. Something that they were never intended for. But alas, there you have it.. As an example, take the law of circumcision, people were doing exactly the same thing with it back then as they are today. Using it to justify themselves for salvation, something it was never intended to do. However Paul does admit it still has value for the believer as long as they don't transgress G-d's commandments and even circumcised Timothy during one of his journeys Acts 16:1-3.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what Torah says. But if you are a transgressor of Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision!

So G-d's commandments are not legalistic means to salvation as long as we don't use them that way... In fact, we should really be establishing G-d's laws, not destroying them as Paul clearly states.

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Question... Do I obey all of G-d's commandments? Absolutely NOT... I have never said that I obey G-d's commandments. In fact I think I need grace the more I try to obey...

It hurts me to see that every time we see a commandment that we AUTOMATICALLY think that it is legalism to follow it. No.. No.. No... It is so clear to me now, that I'm upset with myself for not understanding this earlier in my life.

What did Christ say about HIS commandments?? Did He not teach them?

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 5:48, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Matthew 7:21-27, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

John 7:19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

John 8:11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

[neo-x]

It hurts me to see that every time we see a commandment that we AUTOMATICALLY think that it is legalism to follow it. No.. No.. No... It is so clear to me now, that I'm upset with myself for not understanding this earlier in my life.

No, G, I never thought following a command in Torah was legalism. And I doubt Jilay and the others think that. But I also never found myself bound to that command at all costs too. It is the insistence (in this case your specific insistence) that the command must be followed and not following it is sin...is in my humble opinion, the roots of legalism and something that will end up in legalism.

[Kurieuo]

Why do I bring this up? Because it causes me grief to see good people fall into that Torah legalism cr-p. I counseled my friends who were hurt by it and know firsthand what they went through. Thankfully, they have returned to the Church and found balanced Church groups but it was a tuff go for them.

Well, my friend Gman – it looks like you are falling into a variation of a One Law Synagogue type group. Please consider that in complete kindness I mention this to you publically as an example for the readers to learn from – such type group (as evidenced by your comments here) stains the good groups within the Messianic Movement. Let readers know that there are good groups out there and we should not stereotype a movement by one group’s oddities. Gman, your group probably, like the one I was with began okay and like them, slipped somewhere and now what Paul stated in Galatians applies here:

Galatians 5:4-6, " You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." NKJV

I hate to see you go through another bit of turmoil. Remember Jesus the bible speaks of and his grace that will lead you home. I am afraid you may be heading for one rough ride and a crash, like so many before you went through in those One Law groups. Jesus the Messiah is really real and following the strict letter of the law in any form, or twisted reason that distorts grace, does not make you nor keeps you right in God’s sight. With that - a short prayer: So may the indwelling Holy Spirit within you, open your eyes to see where you are heading before the cliff brings forth its fall…

I'm sorry... But I'm going to disagree with you on this Bryan... Of course anyone can take G-d's commandments and turn them into legalism. But G-d's commandments themselves are not legalism. If we understand them from our spirit filled life, we understand them as bringing UNITY to the body... Not division. Sanctification NOT salvation...Unfortunately it is becoming very clear to me that most Christians understand G-d's commandments ONLY as being legalistic means to attain salvation. Something that they were never intended for. But alas, there you have it.. As an example, take the law of circumcision, people were doing exactly the same thing with it back then as they are today. Using it to justify themselves for salvation, something it was never intended to do. However Paul does admit it still has value for the believer as long as they don't transgress G-d's commandments and even circumcised Timothy during one of his journeys Acts 16:1-3.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what Torah says. But if you are a transgressor of Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision!

So G-d's commandments are not legalistic means to salvation as long as we don't use them that way... In fact, we should really be establishing G-d's laws, not destroying them as Paul clearly states.

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Question... Do I obey all of G-d's commandments? Absolutely NOT... I have never said that I obey G-d's commandments. In fact I think I need grace the more I try to obey...

It hurts me to see that every time we see a commandment that we AUTOMATICALLY think that it is legalism to follow it. No.. No.. No... It is so clear to me now, that I'm upset with myself for not understanding this earlier in my life.

What did Christ say about HIS commandments?? Did He not teach them?

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 5:48, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Matthew 7:21-27, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

John 7:19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

John 8:11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I have to say that I express the same concerns as B.W. only without his same experience.

When I first ran into your "Jewish" changes, even to the point of substituting in "G-d" into posts about 1-2 years ago now, it really smacked me in the face.

It was one of the reasons I wanted to discuss your newer "Messianic" beliefs especially re: the Law with you recently. It certainly seems like a "new" path you're on, and it's not one I'd particularly endorse.

Don't get me wrong. There is much beauty in the Torah, and the foreshadows and Jewish traditions which find completion in Christ, but it is not really that which causes concern... it is more of a inward intuitive/spiritual disturbance I suppose about the path you're on and various doctrines I strongly disagree with eschatologically as well as soteriologically and Gospel-wise.

I have no concerns regarding your salvation but more major theological differences in understanding various doctrines.

When B.W. spoke, he essentially expressed a lot of my own felt concerns regarding your Messianic Christianity. So just felt a need to acknowledge B.W.'s owns concerns here myself.

Wish you all the best though and hope you do find greater enrichment in Christ.

[Gman]

It hurts me to see that every time we see a commandment that we AUTOMATICALLY think that it is legalism to follow it. No.. No.. No... It is so clear to me now, that I'm upset with myself for not understanding this earlier in my life.

No, G, I never thought following a command in Torah was legalism. And I doubt Jilay and the others think that. But I also never found myself bound to that command at all costs too. It is the insistence (in this case your specific insistence) that the command must be followed and not following it is sin...is in my humble opinion, the roots of legalism and something that will end up in legalism.

Actually I think the whole matter can be cleared up IF we understand the difference between sanctification (being set apart) as opposed to salvation... Much of what I'm talking about, like following the Sabbaths and the other festivals has to do with sanctification, not salvation itself...

[Gman]

I have to say that I express the same concerns as B.W. only without his same experience.

When I first ran into your "Jewish" changes, even to the point of substituting in "G-d" into posts about 1-2 years ago now, it really smacked me in the face.

A few years ago I couldn't care less what you called G-d. In fact I wasn't even that religious. I prayed maybe once a year. But that is changing for me now.. I want to be careful about it now out of respect.

It was one of the reasons I wanted to discuss your newer "Messianic" beliefs especially re: the Law with you recently. It certainly seems like a "new" path you're on, and it's not one I'd particularly endorse.

K.. It's certainly NOT a popular path by any means.. I find it often lonely at times.. But hey, that's the way it goes sometimes I guess.. I don't see it making the top show on T.V. like I see these other T.V. evangelists (name it and claim it). And I really had to search to find it.. I always knew there was something more to this story but it didn't come easy. And when I found it, it like "hit" me.

It is certainly fascinating to me however how it attaches itself to the Jewish roots. It's really quite amazing to me... I never knew this stuff was in the Bible.

Don't get me wrong. There is much beauty in the Torah, and the foreshadows and Jewish traditions which find completion in Christ, but it is not really that which causes concern... it is more of a inward intuitive/spiritual disturbance I suppose about the path you're on and various doctrines I strongly disagree with eschatologically as well as soteriologically and Gospel-wise.

I have no concerns regarding your salvation but more major theological differences in understanding various doctrines.

Again.. I'm certainly NOT questioning other people's salvation on this panel either.. I do not know how G-d is going to judge this. As I've explained before, what I'm talking about here mostly has to do with the sanctification process or becoming Holy or set apart. So it IS directional... Very much so.

When B.W. spoke, he essentially expressed a lot of my own felt concerns regarding your Messianic Christianity. So just felt a need to acknowledge B.W.'s owns concerns here myself.

Wish you all the best though and hope you do find greater enrichment in Christ.

Thanks K, and others.. Also I'm sorry if I come off as being a jerk sometimes.. Honestly I wish everyone well here in Christ too.. Don't get me wrong.. You are all G-d's children too!!!

Maybe I need to cool it off a bit here.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Actually I think the whole matter can be cleared up IF we understand the difference between sanctification (being set apart) as opposed to salvation... Much of what I'm talking about, like following the Sabbaths and the other festivals has to do with sanctification, not salvation itself...

G, I hope you understand that I tell you this because I'm genuinely concerned for you as a friend and a Brother in Christ. You are falling away from Grace by trying to be justified by following the law. See what it says in Galatians 5:1-12:

5 [a]It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we [c]through the Spirit, [d]by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence [e]in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even [f]mutilate themselves.

Notice what verse 4 says:

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

And in verse 8:

8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

Your belief that you can be justified by following the law, is not from God! Scripture says it, and people here who are concerned for you see what you're getting into. When we're following a false doctrine, it's very difficult to see it ourselves. But when we have friends who see it from the outside, we need to be willing to understand what they're saying.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
That said, and to further discussion, does that mean each believer is responsible for their own "education" in regards to the Gospel?

Ultimately, yes, because through my faith in Christ I am saved. But I also believe we have a responsibility to teach others about the Gospel, as The Lord leads us.
I'm not sure if I answered what you were getting at though.

I think so.
My question is:
Does the responsibility of understanding the gospel fall on each believer or is it "ok" to be TOLD by another what the gospel yes?
IMO, I think that each believer should be responsible for his or hers understanding of the Gospel.
I don't think that each believer can/should be a theologian BUT I think that taking someone else word for what the Gospel is or isn't is NOT what a believer should do.

Paul, how would you have known what the Gospel is if someone didn't tell you?

Should we take the word of what the Gospel is from every professing pope, priest, or pastor. I think a good example is shown in Acts 17:11:
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


If someone tells us something, especially if they claim it's the Gospel, we should examine scripture to see if it's true.

Agreed.

[PaulSacramento]

One thing that I have noticed and, because of my exposure to the JW's and other "fringe" Denominations see very often, is how proof texting can be done by ALL sides to justify even the most "opposite" of positions.