The Law

[zacchaeus]

Okay, I'll bite again, I'm curious...

Gman,

Please describe attaining and differences by process how you interpret and view 1)salvation 2)sanctification

Rick,

Did you ever see where I addressed your question to me?

[RickD]

Zacchaeus wrote:
Rick,

Did you ever see where I addressed your question to me?

Yes Zacchaeus, here:

Yes it ties into being "Super-legalistic", and no not sure it had anything to do with the law- not in my case!!! My position has nothing to do with the levitical law = Holiness (Holy Living). I was simply told if I died while in a state of unrepentant sin, my belief in Christ was irrelevant and I'm expedited to HELL based on the simple fact I wasn't good enough, I didn't repent enough, believing in Christ and being a "whosoever" means nothing and has no bearing. I have no clue why I used to believe that... but go read my old posts, I was pretty good at defending it, lol (Men in Black Style).

Who told you that if you died with unrepentant sin, you'd go to hell?

[zacchaeus]

Proponents of "Oops you might have just lost your salvation"!!!

[jlay]

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/do ... lelife.htm
If anyone is interested, here is an article that dealves into the subject.

Rick, I can pretty much guess verbatim what the response will be. Although Paul uses the term justification, this really is as much about sanctification as anything. The Bible never uses terms like progressive sanctification. If the Law is the means of sanctification then yes, we should all follow it. But of course it is not. Galatians is not a very long book. No one can read through the book of Galatians and come to the conclusion that Gentiles simply need to start adopting the law, rituals, etc. from the Torah.

Here is the entire reason for the writing of Galatians.
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!"

In Gal. 5:16 Paul says, "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."
While this seems so clear too me, I do understand why some think we need to return to the Law to accomplish this.

The beauty of Galatians is that you can read through it very quickly. In fact, that is exactly how it should be read. I would challenge anyone to read this letter through in one sitting every day for a week.

[RickD]

jlay wrote:
Rick, I can pretty much guess verbatim what the response will be. Although Paul uses the term justification, this really is as much about sanctification as anything. The Bible never uses terms like progressive sanctification. If the Law is the means of sanctification then yes, we should all follow it. But of course it is not. Galatians is not a very long book. No one can read through the book of Galatians and come to the conclusion that Gentiles simply need to start adopting the law, rituals, etc. from the Torah.

I was thinking of verses in Galatians, and I quoted the wrong ones!!!

This is what I was thinking of:

Galatians 3:1-5:
3 [a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Sorry, Gman. My point still stands, although I quoted the wrong scripture to back it up.

Anyways, this link does a pretty god job of explaining sanctification. Whoever this Chris Morrison character is , he seems to have a pretty good understanding:
http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-law.pdf

[zacchaeus]

nobody is GOOD, no not one!!!

This is interesting scripture...

Coloss 2:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made youd alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having CANCELEDthe charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has TAKEN IT AWAY NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. 15And having DISARMED the powers and authorities, he MADE A PUBLIC SPECTACLE of them, TRUMPING over them BY THE CROSS.

Are reality is in Christ- these were simply shadow of things to come. Those that do strive hard to go in grave detail of "their" position. These rules will perish and are based on merely human commands!!!

[Gman]

Okay, I'll bite again, I'm curious...

Gman,

Please describe attaining and differences by process how you interpret and view 1)salvation 2)sanctification

Trust me.. It's really not that complicated. Salvation is becoming saved whereas sanctification means to be set apart or Holy. Both are done via the Holy Spirit.

[Gman]

Galatians 3:1-5:
3 [a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Sorry, Gman. My point still stands, although I quoted the wrong scripture to back it up.

Anyways, this link does a pretty god job of explaining sanctification. Whoever this Chris Morrison character is , he seems to have a pretty good understanding:
http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-law.pdf

Again this verse Galatians 3:1-5 is talking about using G-d's laws to make a legalistic approach towards salvation but it is NOT saying that G-d's laws are now legalistic... Again it is wrong how we can use G-d's laws... We don't use G-d's laws to justify ourselves. We use G-d's laws to identify sin in our lives as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Romans 7:7 CLEARLY states.

Now look at Galatians 2:16.. It clearly states that no one is justified by the works of the Law but the law itself are not legalistic works.. It's how people turned them into legalism to justify themselves before G-d..

Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the WORKS of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the WORKS of the law, because by the WORKS of the law no one will be justified.

If the law is so bad, then why did Paul say he delights in it?

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

[Gman]

nobody is GOOD, no not one!!!

This is interesting scripture...

Coloss 2:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made youd alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having CANCELEDthe charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has TAKEN IT AWAY NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. 15And having DISARMED the powers and authorities, he MADE A PUBLIC SPECTACLE of them, TRUMPING over them BY THE CROSS.

Are reality is in Christ- these were simply shadow of things to come. Those that do strive hard to go in grave detail of "their" position. These rules will perish and are based on merely human commands!!!

What did Christ say about the commandments??

Luke 10:26-28 26 “What is written in the LAW?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Christ is CLEARLY saying in this passage that G-d's commandments equals "LOVE".. NOT legalism... So if Christ cancelled the law by nailing it to the cross, He is actually wanting to cancel love??

[zacchaeus]

I think we should take Him at His WORD... simply to LOVE HIM!!! You can't earn love, you can't work for love!!! Christ is LOVE!!! So do you think these same LAWS apply throughout eternity? What did people ever do before the Mosaic LAW, what did they ever do before Priesthood, before Leviticus? Did Adam and Eve follow these same laws? Faith has always acted the same- belief, them looking to the cross, us looking back. You would have to argue that Christ changes and isn't the same today as yesterday, last week, or 2000 years ago before the law was established? The Law was simply to counter all other false pagan cults that had their own laws or set rules, the law was to set us apart, but from the pagan nations.

Do you think the Nation of Israel and the Church of Christ are two distinctly separate entities? Do you have clear understanding of Leviticus 10:10? No historical context, hay?

Back to nailing to the cross... He being LOVE, surely He nailed Himself, but going by your definition LOVE resurrected and the levitical law didn't, if it did Christ died in vain? I'm beginning to think that is very close to your belief... Christ death wasn't good enough, the cross plus anything means it wasn't finished, implicating Jesus as a liar, if He be a liar, then He is not the Messiah? What say ye?

Understanding that levitical law required the offering of an unblemished, perfect, blood sacrifice as atonment to sin- He served as that offering in the establishment of a New Covenant as "the Lamb of God" (John 1:29,36). He certainly fulfild or breaking it down (satisfied) the entirety of the levitical law. In His perfect obedience to God, Jesus fulfilled all the Law's requirements. To be sure, He ended canceled the whole code- considering works cannot perfect us nor save us, it is His perfection that imparts His righteousness (not ours) on us. He are made whole and perfect in Him... like marriage ONE with Him, having partook in all He dead, including death, burrial, and resurrection. Following this, we've beat sin and death by keeping the LAW perfect and fullfilling it along side HIM.

[God] forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code [the Law], with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

According to the Bible, the sacrifice of Jesus canceled the rules, regulations and ordinances of Levitical Law, having nailed them to the cross!!! How do you reconcile that Christ NAILED them to the CROSS?

Now I'm curious, does Jlay still insist we simply don't agree, and Rick for that matter. We don't live by the letter but the SPIRIT!!!

[jlay]

Zac,
I'd say we agree in most things. Which of course is good.

I can't help but notice the comments by G in referencing the lawyer. (Luke 10:26,27,28) Of course we must first understand that the Old Covenant, at that time, is in full effect. Context. Audience. These are encounters with Jews who are under the Old Covenant. It is still a mystery how G conflates this to mean that we should follow some ammended version of the law today. I guess G has no hands and eyes since Jesus said it is better to lose them.

There is another encounter very similar between Jesus and the RYR. The law also comes up in a similar way
Here is the question, was the Lawyer fufilling the law? Was he loving God with his all? No. Who has? No one except Christ Himself.

And consider this, was Jesus actually claiming that thh RYR, by selling all he had and giving to the poor, could earn eternal life?
Or was Jesus using the Law in a good way (for its intended purpose), much like what Paul claimed the Law would do? That being, to point the lawyer and the RYR towards a savior. (Gal. 3:24)

So if Christ cancelled the law by nailing it to the cross, He is actually wanting to cancel love??

I think this quote sums up G's issue well. Seriously, you can't reason with this.

[PaulSacramento]

I think I am going to have to ask for clarification here, for a clear cut answer:
GMAN, If a Christian does NOT follow the Sabbath law, is he saved by "just" putting his faith in Christ?

[Gman]

I think we should take Him at His WORD... simply to LOVE HIM!!! You can't earn love, you can't work for love!!! Christ is LOVE!!! So do you think these same LAWS apply throughout eternity? What did people ever do before the Mosaic LAW, what did they ever do before Priesthood, before Leviticus? Did Adam and Eve follow these same laws? Faith has always acted the same- belief, them looking to the cross, us looking back. You would have to argue that Christ changes and isn't the same today as yesterday, last week, or 2000 years ago before the law was established? The Law was simply to counter all other false pagan cults that had their own laws or set rules, the law was to set us apart, but from the pagan nations.

Do you think the Nation of Israel and the Church of Christ are two distinctly separate entities? Do you have clear understanding of Leviticus 10:10? No historical context, hay?

Back to nailing to the cross... He being LOVE, surely He nailed Himself, but going by your definition LOVE resurrected and the levitical law didn't, if it did Christ died in vain? I'm beginning to think that is very close to your belief... Christ death wasn't good enough, the cross plus anything means it wasn't finished, implicating Jesus as a liar, if He be a liar, then He is not the Messiah? What say ye?

Understanding that levitical law required the offering of an unblemished, perfect, blood sacrifice as atonment to sin- He served as that offering in the establishment of a New Covenant as "the Lamb of God" (John 1:29,36). He certainly fulfild or breaking it down (satisfied) the entirety of the levitical law. In His perfect obedience to God, Jesus fulfilled all the Law's requirements. To be sure, He ended canceled the whole code- considering works cannot perfect us nor save us, it is His perfection that imparts His righteousness (not ours) on us. He are made whole and perfect in Him... like marriage ONE with Him, having partook in all He dead, including death, burrial, and resurrection. Following this, we've beat sin and death by keeping the LAW perfect and fullfilling it along side HIM.

[God] forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code [the Law], with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." NIV

According to the Bible, the sacrifice of Jesus canceled the rules, regulations and ordinances of Levitical Law, having nailed them to the cross!!! How do you reconcile that Christ NAILED them to the CROSS?

Now I'm curious, does Jlay still insist we simply don't agree, and Rick for that matter. We don't live by the letter but the SPIRIT!!!

Incorrect... G-d did not nail His laws on the cross and then bury them away in a dungeon ... The "certificate of debt" is not the Torah, it is the RECORD of our sins that the law exposed!!! The certificate nailed to the cross is a document of our sin, a document of our violations of G-d's ordinances, our violations of the Torah. Think of it like a guilty verdict written in a court of law or a bill. Christ cancelled the document which recorded our sins and transgressions, nailing it to the cross when he Himself was nailed to the cross.. Which is why Paul stated the following.

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

[Gman]

Zac,
I'd say we agree in most things. Which of course is good.

I can't help but notice the comments by G in referencing the lawyer. (Luke 10:26,27,28) Of course we must first understand that the Old Covenant, at that time, is in full effect. Context. Audience. These are encounters with Jews who are under the Old Covenant. It is still a mystery how G conflates this to mean that we should follow some ammended version of the law today. I guess G has no hands and eyes since Jesus said it is better to lose them.

There is another encounter very similar between Jesus and the RYR. The law also comes up in a similar way
Here is the question, was the Lawyer fufilling the law? Was he loving God with his all? No. Who has? No one except Christ Himself.

And consider this, was Jesus actually claiming that thh RYR, by selling all he had and giving to the poor, could earn eternal life?
Or was Jesus using the Law in a good way (for its intended purpose), much like what Paul claimed the Law would do? That being, to point the lawyer and the RYR towards a savior. (Gal. 3:24)

So if Christ cancelled the law by nailing it to the cross, He is actually wanting to cancel love??

I think this quote sums up G's issue well. Seriously, you can't reason with this.

Again... You are confused.. G-d's commandments are for our direction... Christ did NOT cast them aside. Fulfulling G-d's laws does not mean that we simply toss them under the bus now. The "works of the law" does NOT mean following the law, it means turning the law into a legalistic means to achieve salvation. Don't forget what James said about faith and works.

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

James 4:11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

James 5:19-20, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

[Gman]

I think I am going to have to ask for clarification here, for a clear cut answer:
GMAN, If a Christian does NOT follow the Sabbath law, is he saved by "just" putting his faith in Christ?

Again the Sabbath is freedom.... When you work every day of the week it's called bondage. Even if you say that every day is devoted to Christ. That is simply nonsense, working is bondage that steals your joy and your time and burns you out causing you a slow death. As for it being a issue of salvation, it depends on how you use it. If you claim that following the sabbath makes you righteous, then it is a BAD thing. However, if you use it to worship G-d and refresh yourself and your family, then it can be used for good..

Again.. It's all how you perform it.. But the Sabbath law itself in NOT a legalistic law, it's a darn good one as I'm finding out..