The Law

[Kurieuo]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

[RickD]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

Another "Assurance of Salvation" thread?

[Jac3510]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

I certainly wouldn't presume to speak to Gman's salvation--I have no idea if he's ever trusted in Christ alone at any point in his life; if he has, then he's as saved as every other saint ever has been--but I certainly contend that he is preaching a false gospel. To be more specific, it's the Galatian heresy he advocates. As such, I say he is anathema(Gal 1:8-9), has fallen from grace, and has been alienated from Christ (Gal 5:4).

Again, I emphasize, whether or not he's going to heaven, I don't know. That's between him and Jesus. If he does so, it won't be because he's following his gospel. It will be in spite of it, and thanks only to the grace of God who is faithful even when we are faithless (2 Tim 2:13).

[Gman]

So it isn't?

What did I write before?

[Gman]

Yes, The OT condemned ACTIONS and Christ made it clear that INTENTIONS were also condemnable since, of course, they lead to actions.
The OT made clear what sin was and Christ made it clear WHERE it came from/started.

Who gave the OT laws on Mt. Sinai? Didn't you know that it was Jesus Christ himself that gave all the laws and whose voice shook the earth there? What does Hebrews 12:24-26 say?

Hebrews 12:24-26 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”

The Bible clearly states that there is only one lawgiver... And that lawgiver was Jesus Christ.

James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Who gave us all the commandments, whether the were the Mosaic or others? That's right Christ Himself...

[Gman]

Gman seems unwilling to acknowledge what has already been asked and answered. Everything, and I do mean everything he mentions has already been asked and answered.

You have made it very clear that you cannot answer my questions.. You can't.

G, I'm guessing it is only a matter of time before you are warned by a mod. (If you haven't been already.) Ad-hominems, personal attackes, petty name calling, strawmen..
I didn't say the Jews were cults. I am speaking to YOU. I am saying your eisegeis and method is no better than those used by cults. Others, including mods have also said as much.

When all else fails, attack my mod status... Your ad-hominems, personal attackes, petty name calling are getting no where either.. Are you even reading what I'm writing?

What is your point of these quotes? Do you really think they help your case, because they don't. Yes, what does the Bible say about being holy. It says believers ARE holy.

So if you are claiming that you are holy, then why are you so offended when I bring up these verses about purging sin from our lives??? Where is the purity?

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Ephesians 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Ephesians 5:5-6, “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

Colossians 3:5-8 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

You do understand that the Greek word for saint is the exaxt same word for Holy? Who made us Holy? Christ, through His shed blood. Your statement is an admission you do not believe this revelation.

Again... You believe we don't have to live in purity since Christ became Holy? What does your Bible say to that?

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

You believe that holiness is obtained by YOUR actions and behaviors in following the Law.

No.. I never said that... I said that a believer WILL WANT to follow G-d's commandments as EVIDENCE of their faith. The work was already done in Christ. That is WHY we follow His commandments.. In FAITH... Because of His love for us.

In light of the cross, we are declared Holy and Righteouss by God. Are you denying God his claim? Yes, you revert back to a system that God certainly implemented, but is not operating under today. It is spiritual larceny and you sir are guilty. I can know that I am Holy, because I am simply resting and trusting in the finished work of Christ. Not my own works, or efforts. I can only glory in Christ.

No... Again.. As I have stated many many many many times..... It 's true that we are declared righteous by G-d when we confess Christ as our Lord and savior.. That is WHY we follow his commandments. So why follow His commandments? Because He asks us too..... It's called being in a RELATIONSHIP..

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

IAlready addressed. I showed how the Law of God addresses practical as well as prescriptive.
Why would it be odd that the Law would incorporate such things? Does that mean they are right because the Law says so. Or does the Law say so, because they are right. Does a person walking in the spirit need a written rule to know not to slander others? Apparently you think we don't really house this treasure in our lives.

You have got to be kidding me.... Does a person walking in the spirit need a written rule to know not to slander others? What are we in the second grade here? Of course we need written rules.... How else are we going to know right from wrong if they were not written down for us?? Why don't we just toss the entire book down the drain then.. And any other laws too for that matter. Fire the police force and our judges too to teaching the law for us.

G, if you haven't learned by now how you are asking loaded, presumptive questions, and building straw men, then it is hopeless. The Law is good. Take any verse in scripture about the Law and I will agree. But I will also use proper Exegesis to know whether the law applies to me or not. Audience, context, purpose, application. Saying we are not under the law is not saying it's OK to murder, or slander, or anything of the sort. You keep regurgitating the same failed arguments, resorting to name calling and multiple examples of fallacious reasoning. You are puffed up with pride and therefore unable to be reasoned with.

Again.. We follow G-d's commandments BECAUSE we are saved.. What you keep saying that G-d's laws are now done away with.. That is completely false.. If we don't have His laws, how will we know about sin in our lives that point us to Christ??

Now you are claiming that justification is not by faith.

Now, you want to take an actual chapter and entire book dedicated to systematically explaining (forsensic) justification, and throw it out because a verse in James (written to Jews, btw) seems to support your presuppositions??

No... You are taking that out of context.. Faith and obedience have to be united. Obedience is the EVIDENCE of our faith.. The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. In fact if you back up to Romans 3, he even states that we establish the law.

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

And now jump down to Romans chapter 6.. He Clear states that we shouldn't sin so that grace abounds. Why do you think he made that claim.

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

And how is this working out for you G? How are you doing? Are you keeping the Law perfectly in word thought and deed?

No.. I'm not keeping the law perfectly.. Did I ever say I was? So if we can't, are you saying that we shouldn't try to stop sinning? If we can't stop at a stop sign on the road all the time perfectly, are you implying that we destroy all the stop signs now?

[Gman]

What happens when a person makes the Law an Idol?

Exodus 20:3, 4 "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…" NKJV

How can you tell when someone does this?

They falsely accuse others of not keeping the law written in their hearts:

Jeremiah 31:33, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." NKJV

Are you not doing so, Gman? Falsely accusing people here, responding to you of not keeping the law in one's heart through the regenerating and renewing inner work of the Holy Spirit ?

Titus 3:5, 6, ….not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." NKJV

Has your faith turned away to serving idol of Law, Gman, in the same manner as the Pharisees and Scribes of long ago?
-
-
-

Great.. So now I'm called a idolator for saying that we should follow G-d's commandments..

Bryan, search your heart... What do you really think I'm saying here? My life of sin nearly killed me until someone told me to stop sinning and to purify myself as His spirit cleansed me. I was a complete mess.. I was living in sexual immorality, drugs, and everything else. And this was AFTER I was claiming I was a Christian. I was empty.. Now my life is starting to have meaning. But my mind is still a ship wreck. I'm still undoing years of crud that I put into my temple because no one told me otherwise. Don't you see? Where is the purity? What does the scripture say about purity? What did Christ say about being holy?

Matthew 5:48, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

2 Corinthians 13:5-6, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you —unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Galatians 6:3-5 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load.

Ephesians 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Ephesians 5:5-6, “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

Colossians 3:5-8 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

[Gman]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

I certainly wouldn't presume to speak to Gman's salvation--I have no idea if he's ever trusted in Christ alone at any point in his life; if he has, then he's as saved as every other saint ever has been--but I certainly contend that he is preaching a false gospel. To be more specific, it's the Galatian heresy he advocates. As such, I say he is anathema(Gal 1:8-9), has fallen from grace, and has been alienated from Christ (Gal 5:4).

Again, I emphasize, whether or not he's going to heaven, I don't know. That's between him and Jesus. If he does so, it won't be because he's following his gospel. It will be in spite of it, and thanks only to the grace of God who is faithful even when we are faithless (2 Tim 2:13).

I'll tell you what is heresy. That free grace cancer that nearly killed me... Didn't you ever understand that G-d's laws ARE FREEDOM? They are what gives us His freedom.

Let's look at a few scriptures for examples and see what it says..

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Psalm 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. 10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

So as we can see there is nothing intrinsically wrong with G-d's commandments. They are most certainly not imperfect. So why did Christ come? Many reasons, to take on the sins of the world 1 Tim 1:15, to give the abundant life John 10:10, etc.. But let's see what He says about His laws...

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

So the logic still stands.. He didn't come to abolish His laws. He came to fulfill. Therefore His laws and commandments still stand for our instruction as 2 Tim 3:16 clearly states that ALL SCRIPTURE is useful for.

[Gman]

You know what guys.. I'm looking at my other posts and all I'm doing is repeating myself over and over again.. And I really don't think we are making any progress here.. All that I ask is that you look into G-d's commandments as bringing FREEDOM, GRACE AND LOVE to your lives.. If you teach them as legalism and finished, then it will never work and no one will want to follow them. But I also just realized something else.. It has to be in your heart also.. So in many ways it really doesn't matter what I'm saying or conveying to you. You will have to search your heart. I CANNOT do that for you but only through the Holy Spirit..

May G-d bless you....

[Kurieuo]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

I certainly wouldn't presume to speak to Gman's salvation--I have no idea if he's ever trusted in Christ alone at any point in his life; if he has, then he's as saved as every other saint ever has been--but I certainly contend that he is preaching a false gospel. To be more specific, it's the Galatian heresy he advocates. As such, I say he is anathema(Gal 1:8-9), has fallen from grace, and has been alienated from Christ (Gal 5:4).

Again, I emphasize, whether or not he's going to heaven, I don't know. That's between him and Jesus. If he does so, it won't be because he's following his gospel. It will be in spite of it, and thanks only to the grace of God who is faithful even when we are faithless (2 Tim 2:13).

Strong words. Certainly didn't see that coming from you.

Be interested to know what zacchaeus, PS, Jlay, B.W. and any others who have been in heavy discussion in opposition to Gman think?

[Kurieuo]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

Another "Assurance of Salvation" thread?

Heh, you mean that pot at the end of the rainbow?

[RickD]

Gman,
Let's see, B. W., Canuckster, Kurieuo, Jac, Jlay, PaulSacramento, Zacchaeus, Neo-x,(sorry if I missed anyone) all disagree with you on this. I'm not saying that because they all disagree with you, that it necessarily means they are right and you are wrong. But if I held to a belief as strongly as you hold to and defend this belief, and all these members who I respect, disagree with me, logic would tell me that I need to take a serious look at what I'm trying to defend.

[Jac3510]

Strong words. Certainly didn't see that coming from you.

Well I do tend to be enigmatic half the time.

[jlay]

You have made it very clear that you cannot answer my questions.. You can't.

Interesting

When all else fails, attack my mod status... Your ad-hominems, personal attackes, petty name calling are getting no where either.. Are you even reading what I'm writing?

Attack? G, I assumed you were no longer a mod, and stepped down when the others did. My comment had nothing to do with attacking your mod status.

So if you are claiming that you are holy, then why are you so offended when I bring up these verses about purging sin from our lives??? Where is the purity

You are welcome to show me where I said I was offended. Again, another in a long line of Strawmen. Every beleiver should be about purging sin from our lives. We have a very different opinion on how that occurs. You think we should all become OT Torah following Jews. However, that is not what Paul teaches.

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”

Again, you quote a verse that is great, but what are you trying to say. I agree with it. Where does this say that we need to become Jewish converts to accomplish this?

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Excellent verse. We should get rid of moral filth. And your point as to how this relates to becoming Jewish converts?

Ephesians 5:5-6, “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

Amen. Now, please explain why you are proof texting this verse?

No.. I never said that... I said that a believer WILL WANT to follow G-d's commandments as EVIDENCE of their faith. The work was already done in Christ. That is WHY we follow His commandments.. In FAITH... Because of His love for us.

Semantics. You are just slipping in Judiazing as backdoor works salvation. It sounds like this. "Yes, we are saved by faith alone. But, IF you are saved you will convert to a card carrying OT, Torah practicing Jew. Because, it is what you will want to do....., if you are really saved that is. It's evidence that your faith is real."

No... Again.. As I have stated many many many many times..... It 's true that we are declared righteous by G-d when we confess Christ as our Lord and savior.. That is WHY we follow his commandments. So why follow His commandments? Because He asks us too..... It's called being in a RELATIONSHIP..

No question God desires relationship and has made that a reality.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

Let's do an exegesis.
Audience: The 12, who were practicing Jews
When: Prior to the cross and the ratification of the New Covenant.
Why: To instruct,and prepare the 12 for the New Covenant with Israel and the baptizing of the HS on Pentecost.

Aside from that, you once again conflate every use of the words 'command,' 'obey,' etc. to mean, 'follow the OT Law.' And you arbitrarily apply it without any regard to exegesis. It is a reckless mess, and just as Jac said, a false Gospel.

You have got to be kidding me.... Does a person walking in the spirit need a written rule to know not to slander others? What are we in the second grade here? Of course we need written rules.... How else are we going to know right from wrong if they were not written down for us?? Why don't we just toss the entire book down the drain then.. And any other laws too for that matter. Fire the police force and our judges too to teaching the law for us.

Well let's see.
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:1,2)
This says the saint will be able to test and approve the will of God for Himself. How is that done? By following the Law? No, it doesn't say that. It says by renewing our minds. The world certainly had its religious systems. Anyone could easily conform to that system. Don't touch, don't taste, etc. So can we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice? Does following the Law make us holy and pleasing? Oh wait, you said you did not follow the Law. You try, but you fail. And if you stumble in one point you are guilty of breaking all of it. Ah, but God does make us Holy and pleasing. In fact, we (believers) are MADE the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21) Do you believe that? If not, then you cannot present your bodie as a living sacrifice, nor can you know the will of God. If you continue to see Holiness as an accomplishment of your "trying" (those are your words) then you will fail. And of course you admitted you fail.

Again.. We follow G-d's commandments BECAUSE we are saved.. What you keep saying that G-d's laws are now done away with.. That is completely false.. If we don't have His laws, how will we know about sin in our lives that point us to Christ??

Seriously? Could Paul have not explained it any better?
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:14,15,16,17,18)

-Relate that to the offereing in Romans 12. You are in fact saying that you are under the law, and obligated to OFFER yourself to it. We need to offer ourselves to the obedience of faith. (Romans 1:5)

No... You are taking that out of context.. Faith and obedience have to be united. Obedience is the EVIDENCE of our faith.. The things that you do in serving G-d have to be because you believe in him, and you accept what he says as true and faithful. In fact if you back up to Romans 3, he even states that we establish the law.

Out of context? I quoted the ENTIRE 4th chapter in Romans. Your response is to select proof text, based on your eisegesis. You even have the gall to say, "Now skip down three chapters." And yet, you somehow don't seem to comprehend how ridiculous this makes you look; challenging context to someone who just sited THE CONTEXT, and then immediately follow that with more un-explained proof text. Brilliant.

No.. I'm not keeping the law perfectly.. Did I ever say I was? So if we can't, are you saying that we shouldn't try to stop sinning? If we can't stop at a stop sign on the road all the time perfectly, are you implying that we destroy all the stop signs now

Yes. Because you proof text, “If you love me, you will keep my commands."
What's the matter G, don't you love God with your whole heart? And you quote, "be Holy, because I am Holy." G, you've made it clear that being Holy, in your view, is by keeping the Law,which is essentially becoming an OT Jew. Yet, when the same proof text are applied to you, you say you are not keeping the law perfectly. This means you are a Law breaker. And if you stumble in one point of the Law, you are guilty of breaking all of it. Therefore, you are saying of yourself, you WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom. You are a murderer according to your eisegesis of James and the other scriptures.

The Law is good, and I just demonstrated what it is good for. Leaving the whole world guilty before God.

Again... You believe we don't have to live in purity since Christ became Holy? What does your Bible say to that?

The Bible says we are made pure, holy and righteous in Christ. And it says that we can live a transformed life. That is, we can access and live in the resource of Christ IN US, the hope of glory. I have put in bold every word that has to do with how we think.

(Eph. 4:17-24) So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

Paul, then follows this up with practical instructions for the Gentiles. Not laws, but practical instruction for living, based on knowing who we are In Christ. If Paul wanted those Gentiles to become card carrying OT Jewish converts, there was no better time to let them know. But he didn't.

[PaulSacramento]

Just curious, who here thinks Gman's salvation is in jeopardy by his beliefs re: the Law?

I would not dare to comment on who God decides is saved or not and why.
I believe that Gman loves Our Lord and saviour and has Faith in Him.