Bryan.. A heart of a believer would want to obey His commandments.. I'm shocked too that you don't understand.. If you think that all of G-d's laws are magically ingrained in a believers heart, they would NOT have any problem with obeying G-d's commandments.. Plain and simple..B. W. wrote:He put the NC promise of his law written within the Heart of a believer so we can now live by his grace, relying solely upon him alone, and nothing else... I am rather shockedGman wrote:...I disagree with the teaching... It's in direct violation of Christ's teachings.. Christ DID NOT come to destroy His Laws... But to fulfill.. Until when? Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
that you don't understand John 16:7
That is how Christ fulfilled (completed- capped) the Law...
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The Law
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Gman
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Re: The Law
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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neo-x
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Re: The Law
I didn't say it means that, I just told you what that mentality ultimately brings forth. A very different way to view people than I do now.No... Following G-d's commandments does NOT mean that someone is better than someone else.. Following G-d's commandments means that you put LOVE in front of your steps... Not pride. G-d's commandments are there to convict us of our sin that point us to G-d's grace......
Yes so holy and just...completely different to mercy. that they call to stone the Sabbath breaker, kill any preacher who preaches another God, burn the witch and the prostitute, commands gays to be killed. Sure justice, fine...as far as mercy is concerned, not by a long shot.Tell that to Paul.. He claims that His ways are Holy and Just..
Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”
Keep your rhetoric to yourself G, I don't appreciate that you are using words I am not using. Is this any better than calling grace cancerous and acting like you are going to throw up because you are disgusted of it? I hope you realize what you are doing.So according to belief, since no one can keep G-d's laws we simply flush them down the toilet.. Brilliant thinking..
So let me try your wording here...so in your opinion should we just flush the holy spirit down the toilet...you know we have the LAW to guide us?
ofcourse you don't, right? well grant others the same courtesy and stop using strawmen
You plan to stop sinning because the law just says you should?...good luck with that one. Let me know when you stopped sinning.Everyone already knows we can't keep G-d's commandments... No one can.. But we can still use them to identify sin in our lives and hopefully STOP sinning. G-d's laws are NOT sin.
G...do you happen to notice that we can actually know wrong and right without the law? You are saying if the law did not say "do not murder" then we can't know murder is wrong. If it didn't say "do not bear false witness" then we just won't be able to see if bearing a false witness is a good thing or not.
This is so wrong.
Ah yes the loophole...We are not doomed for trying to keep them and we have been spared by Christ from the curse that they bring since we can't follow it with all our heart.
The law is the shadow here, Christ the substance.neo-x wrote:
The law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the law.
Baloney... Christ IS THE AIM OF THE LAW... Which what? Lead us to HIM...
Unnecessary burden. if you follow the law that is bodage...if its not yet, wait for some years.And you say they are bondage to follow??
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.
I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.
//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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The Protector
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Re: The Law
I've spent the last few days or so casually skimming over this year-long thread, so please forgive me if I go over old ground (although that seems to be what one does in this thread 
). Also, I feel I'm probably a bit out of my depth here in terms of being able to remember applicable parts of scripture, but... here's my two cents anyway.
Gman, to say that the Law is obsolete and no longer binding on one saved by God's grace is not the same as saying that we should disregard the Law altogether or put it in the trash heap or whatever.
You are right in your love of the law for many of the reasons you've stated, as there is much to be learned from the Law. The Law does indeed convict us and point us toward our need for a savior. The Law does help us to understand what is sinful. The Law does indeed help us to understand what it means to love. However, it does not do so in isolation. The Law helps us understand these things only inasmuch as all of scripture helps us to understand these things, and the law must be viewed in the context of the entirety of scripture and God's progressive revelation of himself. In other words, while you are right that the Law helps us to understand what love is and what sin is, it only does so inasmuch as it helps to illustrate God's nature and the nature of our relationship to him. One needn't refrain from all exertion on Saturday in order to understand what the Sabbath law tells us about our proper relationship to God. Likewise, one needn't wear materially homogenous clothing or plant crops a certain way in order to understand what these laws say about our Relationship to God. These laws are no longer binding on us, but we do not "demolish" them in saying so as we use them to help us understand God and our relationship to him. Therefore...
And how did Christ say to be perfect?
Matthew 19:21, "Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, Go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Christ said this to a man who had just claimed that he had already kept the law! Then he said that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. What was Christ’s reply when the disciples asked him, “Who then can be saved?” “With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” But this is as true of the poor man as it is of the rich! What, then, did Christ mean when he implored us to be perfect? We must be perfect in the only way man CAN be perfect—by the cleansing grace of Jesus Christ. Our faith in him, and thereby our accepting his grace, purifies us and makes us perfect. Attempting to be perfect in our actions is a show of incredible hubris – a dangerous place to be, as I believe pride is at the heart of all sin. Remember that in the passage you quoted, Christ was speaking to Jews, and told them that their imperfect displays of love were no better than the Gentiles’, which I’m sure was shocking for God’s chosen people, those who had received and followed the Law, to hear.
You asked, “Is trying to keep sin out of your life bad?” This is the wrong question. Is trying to keep sin out of your life possible? With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. “Trying” to keep sin out of your life is a little like trying to not think about pink elephants – the more you try, the harder it is (incidentally, this is also true of golf). The key to not thinking about pink elephants is to occupy your mind with something else altogether, and leave the whole idea of pink elephants behind. Similarly, the key to not engaging in the worldly is to engage in something outside of the worldly; the key to not sinning, rather than to try really hard not to sin, is simply to devote one’s heart, soul, and mind to God. Again, we do this by trying to love Him and understand Him and our relationship with Him, and studying the Mosaic law is part of that; indeed, this understanding of His nature helps us to understand “sin” (which basically just means “missing the mark” or falling short of Him), and this knowledge helps us to identify when we are falling away from him, losing our Way. But the law itself is not the Way, it only points to the Way, which is Jesus Christ the everlasting God. And it points to the Way not as the necessary and sufficient prescription for Holy living, but inasmuch as all of scripture, and indeed all of revelation, special and natural, point to the Way.
So you see, we are not bound to the Law, we are bound to Jesus Christ, of whom the law was little more than a vague shadow. This is how we can understand the verse you quoted from 1 John 2:3-7:
“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”
(It’s interesting that the one basic commandment to which John refers is "The Word" which was heard from “the beginning.” I don’t know if this translation to “Word” is from “Logos,” though)
Confer with John 14:23-27, “Jesus answered them, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Pease I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.”
We do not love the Lord by keeping His word, we keep his word by loving Him.
). Also, I feel I'm probably a bit out of my depth here in terms of being able to remember applicable parts of scripture, but... here's my two cents anyway.Gman, to say that the Law is obsolete and no longer binding on one saved by God's grace is not the same as saying that we should disregard the Law altogether or put it in the trash heap or whatever.
You are right in your love of the law for many of the reasons you've stated, as there is much to be learned from the Law. The Law does indeed convict us and point us toward our need for a savior. The Law does help us to understand what is sinful. The Law does indeed help us to understand what it means to love. However, it does not do so in isolation. The Law helps us understand these things only inasmuch as all of scripture helps us to understand these things, and the law must be viewed in the context of the entirety of scripture and God's progressive revelation of himself. In other words, while you are right that the Law helps us to understand what love is and what sin is, it only does so inasmuch as it helps to illustrate God's nature and the nature of our relationship to him. One needn't refrain from all exertion on Saturday in order to understand what the Sabbath law tells us about our proper relationship to God. Likewise, one needn't wear materially homogenous clothing or plant crops a certain way in order to understand what these laws say about our Relationship to God. These laws are no longer binding on us, but we do not "demolish" them in saying so as we use them to help us understand God and our relationship to him. Therefore...
That is quite right. That does not imply that one is bound by the Law, however. By learning and understanding the Law, along with the rest of scripture and along with prayerful meditation thereon, one grows in understanding of the Lord; one gains greater understanding of His greatness, His perfection, how far short of Him we fall, and (by extension) how infinite and wonderful His grace truly is.it is G-d's commandments that CONVICT of sin that LEAD us to the GRACE of Christ.. That is seeing and living G-d's grace. Knowing that G-d's commandments are so pure, and seeing our sin, makes us faithful to HIM...
But can we be perfect? None is Righteous, no not one.You think that trying to keep sin out of your life is bad? Why did Christ ask us to be perfect? Was Christ a judaizer too?
Matthew 5:48, “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect
And how did Christ say to be perfect?
Matthew 19:21, "Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, Go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Christ said this to a man who had just claimed that he had already kept the law! Then he said that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. What was Christ’s reply when the disciples asked him, “Who then can be saved?” “With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” But this is as true of the poor man as it is of the rich! What, then, did Christ mean when he implored us to be perfect? We must be perfect in the only way man CAN be perfect—by the cleansing grace of Jesus Christ. Our faith in him, and thereby our accepting his grace, purifies us and makes us perfect. Attempting to be perfect in our actions is a show of incredible hubris – a dangerous place to be, as I believe pride is at the heart of all sin. Remember that in the passage you quoted, Christ was speaking to Jews, and told them that their imperfect displays of love were no better than the Gentiles’, which I’m sure was shocking for God’s chosen people, those who had received and followed the Law, to hear.
You asked, “Is trying to keep sin out of your life bad?” This is the wrong question. Is trying to keep sin out of your life possible? With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. “Trying” to keep sin out of your life is a little like trying to not think about pink elephants – the more you try, the harder it is (incidentally, this is also true of golf). The key to not thinking about pink elephants is to occupy your mind with something else altogether, and leave the whole idea of pink elephants behind. Similarly, the key to not engaging in the worldly is to engage in something outside of the worldly; the key to not sinning, rather than to try really hard not to sin, is simply to devote one’s heart, soul, and mind to God. Again, we do this by trying to love Him and understand Him and our relationship with Him, and studying the Mosaic law is part of that; indeed, this understanding of His nature helps us to understand “sin” (which basically just means “missing the mark” or falling short of Him), and this knowledge helps us to identify when we are falling away from him, losing our Way. But the law itself is not the Way, it only points to the Way, which is Jesus Christ the everlasting God. And it points to the Way not as the necessary and sufficient prescription for Holy living, but inasmuch as all of scripture, and indeed all of revelation, special and natural, point to the Way.
So you see, we are not bound to the Law, we are bound to Jesus Christ, of whom the law was little more than a vague shadow. This is how we can understand the verse you quoted from 1 John 2:3-7:
“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”
(It’s interesting that the one basic commandment to which John refers is "The Word" which was heard from “the beginning.” I don’t know if this translation to “Word” is from “Logos,” though)
Confer with John 14:23-27, “Jesus answered them, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Pease I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.”
We do not love the Lord by keeping His word, we keep his word by loving Him.
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B. W.
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Re: The Law
Not Magically - but by the power of the Holy Spirit shed abroad where? in our hearts...Gman wrote:...Bryan.. A heart of a believer would want to obey His commandments.. I'm shocked too that you don't understand.. If you think that all of G-d's laws are magically ingrained in a believers heart, they would NOT have any problem with obeying G-d's commandments.. Plain and simple..
So are you saying that the Holy Spirit is just magic to you?
I am surprise that you of all people don't know about the Holy Spirit and dare say that God can't place his law in our hearts? - are you...
In Fact - what I stated so far lines up with...
Romans 2:14, 15, ...for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Deut 30:6, And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Jeremiah 31:33, But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Ezekiel 36:25, 26, 27 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them
Romans 2:28, 28, For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Col 2:11-14, In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NKJV
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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B. W.
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Re: The Law
Very good post Protector!The Protector wrote:....We do not love the Lord by keeping His word, we keep his word by loving Him.
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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Jac3510
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Re: The Law
Pretty much as you did. Here's the verse in question, first in Greek script, then in transliteration, then a word for word translation, followed by a translation as you might see in any English NT (all translations mine):B. W. wrote:Jac - how would explain the Greek word order of Romans 10:4 - notice for 'eis' I placed the word 'Toward' for clarity - How would you read it in Greek?
- τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι
telos gar nomou Christos eis dikaiosunen panti to pisteuonti
[The] end for (the) law Christ [is] unto righteousness [to] all -- who believe
For the end of the Law is Christ, and that unto righteousness to all who believe
Given all this, I think most translations miss the force of the verse because they spend all their time debating the meaning of telos. Look at the following translations to see what I mean:
- For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (ESV)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (HCSB)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (KJV)
For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes. (NET)
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (NIV)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (NKJV)
For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified. (RSV)
But that's not Paul's emphasis at all. So why is Paul emphasizing the telos of the Law? The word gar gives a clue. That is an explanatory word. It links us to a previous thought--usually the immediately preceding--as if to say, "what I just said is true because . . ." So look at 10:1-3.
- Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
So to recap before we look at the gar in verse four: The Jews had an unenlightened zeal BECAUSE they sought to establish their own righteousness by keeping the Law rather than submitting to God's by trusting Christ.
We then come to our verse. WHY did they not submit to God's righteousness? BECAUSE (gar) the END of the Law is Christ! The whole point of this passage here is that the Jews were trying to establish righteousness through the Law rather than through the Law's END, which is Christ. But how does one access that END (Christ)? Now we come to your eis. You translated it "toward," which is fair, but it has a wide range of meanings. Notice I translated it "[and that] unto," which echos the NET and RSV. The END of the Law (which is Christ) is for righteousness (note the contrast of the passage; righteousness comes by the end of the Law, not by the Law itself); and that is obtained by faith.
In sum, the Jews missed out because they tried to be righteous through Law keeping, but Paul says true righteousness comes by trusting in the END of the Law, which is Christ.
So then, we close with a quick look at "end" (telos). G wants to translate it as "aim," but doing so is wrong and obscures the meaning of the whole verse. Paul is NOT saying that righteousness comes by keeping the Law with an eye toward Christ, by "aiming at" Christ in keeping the Law. His whole point is that it is not the law, but faith, that is the means to true righteousness. The reason Christ can do that is because of what He is: the culmination (as the NIV puts it) of the Law. He is its completion. It is the part; He is the whole. The Law was "toward" Christ, but only in the sense of being a sign. The reality is here, so the sign is unnecessary. At one time, keeping the Law was an act of faith. Now it is an act of faithlessness. It is like the Passover. It pointed forward to Christ, but for us to celebrate it today as pointing to the future coming of the Messiah would be to deny that the Messiah has already come. That is why, as Christians, we have the Lord's Supper (not Passover) -- we look BACK to when Christ came. To keep the Passover in the OT sense is to deny that Christ has come. And just so with Law keeping. That's what Paul is saying in this passage with this word telos.
All of this is confirmed in the verses that follow.
- Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
To suggest, then, that telos means "aim" in this verse and that Paul's point here or anywhere else is that we show our love for God and the reality of our faith by keeping the Law directly contradicts what this passage says. Or, put differently, this passage identifies that belief -- that Law keeping is in any sense related to our righteousness -- as contrary to the gospel itself, and says that belief is rooted in an ignorant and unenlightened zeal. It is, Paul is saying, a fundamental denial of faith and a denial of the righteousness of God.
That's probably a lot more than you asked for, but I wanted to be thorough.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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B. W.
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Re: The Law
...Actually Jac - that was what I had in mind. When Telos is used first word order - it is emphatic:
END of LAW!!!!! Christ eis ----> {in to} righteousness everyone who believes
τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι
telos gar nomou Christos eis dikaiosunen panti to pisteuonti
Basically I read the word order pointing out this truth according to context of chapter 10 this way - that is is by Christ Jesus is how we are moved into righteousness through the agency of Faith (believing in Jesus alone)
I say this because of the contextual theme flow of chapter 10 is how you cited. I would add a note on the word order of verse 10 and 11 which verifies clearly Vine's point that END LAW is the intended purposeful intent of Paul in the text. Below is the word order of key verses 3, 4, 10, and 11
Rom 10:3 Being ignorantly-unacquainted - (gar - even) with-even the -- very righteousness of God, and their righteousness seeking to establish, !!!THE!!! righteousness of God they absolutely-would-not submit (to) -- 4 !!!END!!! (gar) 'no-doubt-of' LAW!!!!! Christ eis ----> {moves in to} righteousness everyone who believes.
Notice How is explained in verse 10 and 11
Rom 10:10, 11, ....heart for trusts (eis) unto ---> righteousness; and the mouth also acknowledges salvation's-deliverance. 11 Says '(gar) no-doubt' the scripture, Everyone trusting-believing upon him shall not be put to shameful dishonor (i.e. disowning - a casting away).
Kind of difficult to force the text and contextual theme of Chapter 10 to support that is was the aim/goal of Christ to establish the written law as the means of attaining righteousness before God.
Also note that once you reached a GOAL - that you reached the end of a journey. Therefore, even translating 10:4 thusly - For Christ is the Goal of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.. we see that it expresses an END to being made righteous by works of the law - that goal was reached by Jesus Christ and attain by trusting in HIM alone - not hanging around the goal post the rest of one's mortal life...
Good post Jac...
I always find it fun to read the original Greek word order to help clarify things a bit more than English translations can do. Must be the
in me... 
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END of LAW!!!!! Christ eis ----> {in to} righteousness everyone who believes
τέλος γὰρ νόμου Χριστὸς εἰς δικαιοσύνην παντὶ τῷ πιστεύοντι
telos gar nomou Christos eis dikaiosunen panti to pisteuonti
Basically I read the word order pointing out this truth according to context of chapter 10 this way - that is is by Christ Jesus is how we are moved into righteousness through the agency of Faith (believing in Jesus alone)
I say this because of the contextual theme flow of chapter 10 is how you cited. I would add a note on the word order of verse 10 and 11 which verifies clearly Vine's point that END LAW is the intended purposeful intent of Paul in the text. Below is the word order of key verses 3, 4, 10, and 11
Rom 10:3 Being ignorantly-unacquainted - (gar - even) with-even the -- very righteousness of God, and their righteousness seeking to establish, !!!THE!!! righteousness of God they absolutely-would-not submit (to) -- 4 !!!END!!! (gar) 'no-doubt-of' LAW!!!!! Christ eis ----> {moves in to} righteousness everyone who believes.
Notice How is explained in verse 10 and 11
Rom 10:10, 11, ....heart for trusts (eis) unto ---> righteousness; and the mouth also acknowledges salvation's-deliverance. 11 Says '(gar) no-doubt' the scripture, Everyone trusting-believing upon him shall not be put to shameful dishonor (i.e. disowning - a casting away).
Kind of difficult to force the text and contextual theme of Chapter 10 to support that is was the aim/goal of Christ to establish the written law as the means of attaining righteousness before God.
Also note that once you reached a GOAL - that you reached the end of a journey. Therefore, even translating 10:4 thusly - For Christ is the Goal of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.. we see that it expresses an END to being made righteous by works of the law - that goal was reached by Jesus Christ and attain by trusting in HIM alone - not hanging around the goal post the rest of one's mortal life...
Good post Jac...
I always find it fun to read the original Greek word order to help clarify things a bit more than English translations can do. Must be the
in me... -
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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Jac3510
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Re: The Law
Very good, B.W., and I 100% agree. The word order thing is fun because it's one of the ways in which the Greek text helps you see the emphases the authors were making, and those emphases often just can't be brought out in translation (without really awkward wording, as in my translation of 10:4). It's just one more way that the point is so very crystal clear.
Of course, it doesn't surprise me that you've nailed it here. As I said originally, you've been right about that verse all along, and my own explanation was just an expansion on the points you had already made.
Lastly, I'd say that you point about the Christ being the goal of the law is probably very well stated. Your analogy of the end of a journey is spot on, I pictured the end of a race. You don't finish a race so that you can run it successfully, nor do you complete a journey so that you can effectively travel from A to B. That kind of thinking is exactly backwards. You run successfully so that you can finish, and you travel so that you can complete journey. So to, we do not trust Christ so that we can keep the Law in our love for Him; rather, the Law existed so that, in keeping it, one could see and know Christ when He came. As someone else said (I think it was neo), the Law points to Christ; Christ does not point to the Law. And that is why the author of Hebrews (Paul?) was so emphatic about not going to back to the Law, to the elemental things of this world.
I feel the need for whatever reason to keep restating this next thing (maybe because of K's comments) -- I don't care if G wants to keep the Law for himself. I just regard him in that way as a brother of weaker conscience. That doesn't diminish his salvation one bit (although the fact that he has a weak conscience, I think, will hamper his relationship with Christ). I object so strongly to all of this because when he (or anyone) says we are still under the Law, that includes me and those I love and minister to, and sorry, but I'm not going back to that. I've tasted grace and freedom, and it is not found in the Law.
So me? I just love Jesus, and that He has loved and accepted me and is pleased with me in complete knowledge of the fact that I don't deserve it and never will be able to deserve it no matter how good or bad I am, well that just makes me love Him more. A license to sin? Please. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's like when I told my wife I would never leave her, not even if she was repeatedly unfaithful. Does that mean she wants to go out and be with other men? Ask her yourself, and you'll find that she says that I've taken that position makes her love me all the more and makes her want to honor me all the more. And I her.
Grace really is a beautiful thing . . .
But I'm rambling and preaching now, so I'll stop. Point is, we're in complete agreement here.
Of course, it doesn't surprise me that you've nailed it here. As I said originally, you've been right about that verse all along, and my own explanation was just an expansion on the points you had already made.
Lastly, I'd say that you point about the Christ being the goal of the law is probably very well stated. Your analogy of the end of a journey is spot on, I pictured the end of a race. You don't finish a race so that you can run it successfully, nor do you complete a journey so that you can effectively travel from A to B. That kind of thinking is exactly backwards. You run successfully so that you can finish, and you travel so that you can complete journey. So to, we do not trust Christ so that we can keep the Law in our love for Him; rather, the Law existed so that, in keeping it, one could see and know Christ when He came. As someone else said (I think it was neo), the Law points to Christ; Christ does not point to the Law. And that is why the author of Hebrews (Paul?) was so emphatic about not going to back to the Law, to the elemental things of this world.
I feel the need for whatever reason to keep restating this next thing (maybe because of K's comments) -- I don't care if G wants to keep the Law for himself. I just regard him in that way as a brother of weaker conscience. That doesn't diminish his salvation one bit (although the fact that he has a weak conscience, I think, will hamper his relationship with Christ). I object so strongly to all of this because when he (or anyone) says we are still under the Law, that includes me and those I love and minister to, and sorry, but I'm not going back to that. I've tasted grace and freedom, and it is not found in the Law.
So me? I just love Jesus, and that He has loved and accepted me and is pleased with me in complete knowledge of the fact that I don't deserve it and never will be able to deserve it no matter how good or bad I am, well that just makes me love Him more. A license to sin? Please. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's like when I told my wife I would never leave her, not even if she was repeatedly unfaithful. Does that mean she wants to go out and be with other men? Ask her yourself, and you'll find that she says that I've taken that position makes her love me all the more and makes her want to honor me all the more. And I her.
Grace really is a beautiful thing . . .
But I'm rambling and preaching now, so I'll stop. Point is, we're in complete agreement here.
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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B. W.
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Re: The Law
Yes jac, reminds me of the the story of Corey who lived on the Island of Blarney located between the Isle of Wright and Isle of Wroung. Ol’ Cory never made it past Kindergarten so when the missionary came, he heard about Christ. He believed and was saved and baptized. Changed his life and the indwelling Holy Spirit taught him true right from true wrong.Jac3510 wrote:Very good, B.W., and I 100% agree. The word order thing is fun because it's one of the ways in which the Greek text helps you see the emphases the authors were making, and those emphases often just can't be brought out in translation (without really awkward wording, as in my translation of 10:4). It's just one more way that the point is so very crystal clear.
Of course, it doesn't surprise me that you've nailed it here. As I said originally, you've been right about that verse all along, and my own explanation was just an expansion on the points you had already made.
Lastly, I'd say that you point about the Christ being the goal of the law is probably very well stated. Your analogy of the end of a journey is spot on, I pictured the end of a race. You don't finish a race so that you can run it successfully, nor do you complete a journey so that you can effectively travel from A to B. That kind of thinking is exactly backwards. You run successfully so that you can finish, and you travel so that you can complete journey. So to, we do not trust Christ so that we can keep the Law in our love for Him; rather, the Law existed so that, in keeping it, one could see and know Christ when He came. As someone else said (I think it was neo), the Law points to Christ; Christ does not point to the Law. And that is why the author of Hebrews (Paul?) was so emphatic about not going to back to the Law, to the elemental things of this world.
I feel the need for whatever reason to keep restating this next thing (maybe because of K's comments) -- I don't care if G wants to keep the Law for himself. I just regard him in that way as a brother of weaker conscience. That doesn't diminish his salvation one bit (although the fact that he has a weak conscience, I think, will hamper his relationship with Christ). I object so strongly to all of this because when he (or anyone) says we are still under the Law, that includes me and those I love and minister to, and sorry, but I'm not going back to that. I've tasted grace and freedom, and it is not found in the Law.
So me? I just love Jesus, and that He has loved and accepted me and is pleased with me in complete knowledge of the fact that I don't deserve it and never will be able to deserve it no matter how good or bad I am, well that just makes me love Him more. A license to sin? Please. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's like when I told my wife I would never leave her, not even if she was repeatedly unfaithful. Does that mean she wants to go out and be with other men? Ask her yourself, and you'll find that she says that I've taken that position makes her love me all the more and makes her want to honor me all the more. And I her.
Grace really is a beautiful thing . . .
But I'm rambling and preaching now, so I'll stop. Point is, we're in complete agreement here.
Then came a new group in dear old Blarney and set up shop in the village of Stone where Corey lived. They told Corey he needed to kiss the tablets made of cold hard rock inscribed with letters for the readeth. They made known to ol' Corey demanding he must first learn to read their laws before he could ever live true rightly before Gawd. Why – because one had to know the law written on unliving rock first for any could really become completely saved.
"But," ol Corey protested, "The Holy Ghost resides with’n mee. How dare ye say tat ain’t so? I have Christ and He haas me. He guides me life, spanks me alot, from which I learn't, what tis right and what tis wrong. Now 'ear me mate, I can’t read nor write a lick and naw yous tell'n me these granite cold tablets I must read with understand'n and must keep to show I really be saved – what grace is that, I say ye?"
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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Gman
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Re: The Law
Actually this conversation is going nowhere... I can't force anybody to understand G-d's laws.. If you think they are "ended" and that Christ nailed G-d's laws to the cross... Then so be it.
I would rather focus on the grace that Christ gave to me.. He knows my limitations, which is why I want to follow Him and His instructions so that I don't fall into sin again and destroy my life or other people lives... Heaven forbid..
And actually I wanted to THANK everybody here... I feel much better about my position. I wanted to see what type of scriptural responses I would get. I had no idea it would be this easy to defend.. So THANK YOU!!! 
I do believe there were a few people that got it perhaps.. We shall see.. 
Also, please remember not to teach anyone not to steal, commit sexual sin, murder, honor your parents, etc... This is teaching G-d's commandments which according to Jacs standards is bondage... Also tithing.. Anyone who teaches or practices tithing is teaching G-d's laws and is teaching bondage according to the wacky "free grace" philosophy.. So call the "free grace" police on them..
Good luck with free grace... Whatever it is... I don't want any part of it or the bondage it creates. No thanks... I've had enough vomit today..
I would rather focus on the grace that Christ gave to me.. He knows my limitations, which is why I want to follow Him and His instructions so that I don't fall into sin again and destroy my life or other people lives... Heaven forbid..
And actually I wanted to THANK everybody here... I feel much better about my position. I wanted to see what type of scriptural responses I would get. I had no idea it would be this easy to defend.. So THANK YOU!!!
I do believe there were a few people that got it perhaps.. We shall see.. Also, please remember not to teach anyone not to steal, commit sexual sin, murder, honor your parents, etc... This is teaching G-d's commandments which according to Jacs standards is bondage... Also tithing.. Anyone who teaches or practices tithing is teaching G-d's laws and is teaching bondage according to the wacky "free grace" philosophy.. So call the "free grace" police on them..
Good luck with free grace... Whatever it is... I don't want any part of it or the bondage it creates. No thanks... I've had enough vomit today..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Re: The Law
Ok, I just realized something here.. I'm a mod.. I'm actually going to be a "free grace" cop here... ANYONE who uses WRITTEN scripture to point out sin in people lives, like homosexuality, adultery, drunkenness, stealing, or other associated evils will fall under a "free grace" cop for teaching bondage... 
I'm switching posts....
I'm switching posts....
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself...Gman wrote:
And actually I wanted to THANK everybody here... I feel much better about my position. I wanted to see what type of scriptural responses I would get. I had no idea it would be this easy to defend.. So THANK YOU!!! I do believe there were a few people that got it perhaps.. We shall see..
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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B. W.
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Re: The Law
You wrongly judge...Gman wrote:Ok, I just realized something here.. I'm a mod.. I'm actually going to be a "free grace" cop here... ANYONE who uses WRITTEN scripture to point out sin in people lives, like homosexuality, adultery, drunkenness, stealing, or other associated evils will fall under a "free grace" cop for teaching bondage...
I'm switching posts....
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-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
-
Gman
- Old School
- Posts: 6081
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
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- Location: Northern California
Re: The Law
No guys...Really.. I'm a changed man.. I've changed. Jac was right all along.. A few hours ago something came into my mind like a flash. And there is was... "Free Grace" floating in the corner of my room.. How could I have missed it? How could I have stooped so low to follow my evil loving Torah ways? I was a legalist... Alas a nobody lost forever in a cloud of commandments written on paper.. Now I say when we catch someone trying to rest on a sabbath day, we give them the boot and get them back to work for practicing legalism.. These people should be WORKING folks!!! What are they trying to do, get a free lunch?B. W. wrote:You wrongly judge...Gman wrote:Ok, I just realized something here.. I'm a mod.. I'm actually going to be a "free grace" cop here... ANYONE who uses WRITTEN scripture to point out sin in people lives, like homosexuality, adultery, drunkenness, stealing, or other associated evils will fall under a "free grace" cop for teaching bondage...
I'm switching posts....
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Therefore gentlemen.. I say that we break into groups and stomp out the legalistic ways of G-d's commandments on the forum.. Someone cover "general chit-chat section" and another on "the Bible and Scripture" section.. The "Christian Theology" section is simply loaded with G-d's commandments telling people what to do... This legalistic junk has got to stop.. After all.. Where are MY rights? I have MY OWN days to worship.... My OWN free thoughts... We shouldn't be letting some old book dictate to us how we should live... It is a clear violation of "Free Grace" policy.. Christ ended the Law... We don't need it anymore to tell us what to do..
Gentlemen.. I say we ride at sunset.. And conquer the world with our "Free Grace."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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RickD
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Re: The Law
Gman,
I am St. Richard the Sarcastic-patron saint and King of Irony!!! It seems with all that sarcasm in your post, that you are trying to usurp my rightful throne!!
I am St. Richard the Sarcastic-patron saint and King of Irony!!! It seems with all that sarcasm in your post, that you are trying to usurp my rightful throne!!
I'm game!! But we need to make sure our ride isn't on the Sabbath!!!Gman wrote:
Gentlemen.. I say we ride at sunset.. And conquer the world with our "Free Grace."
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony