Why is there death and problems...etc

[CountryBoy]

I read the below question somewhere and thought I'd put it on this forum to see if there were a good answer.

----------------------------------------------------------
Christian Heaven is a place of infinite joy, infinite glory, and infinite fulfillment, which is implicitly free of harm. Consequently it's possible for an omnipotent Christian God to create a world where that applies. It is assumed that Christians there are still exercising free will. Why then wouldn't this omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God merely create heaven and those beings who would pass the earthly test, and sidestep the painful testing ground and the punishment for the others, when an omniscient God would know in advance who eventually would make it in?

[Felgar]

It is assumed that Christians there are still exercising free will.

That is likely an incorrect assumption, based on a flawed understanding of sin, free will, death, and pain.

So the rest of the argument is vacuous.

[CountryBoy]

Felgar,

Are you saying that we will no longer have free wills in heaven? That's what the assumption he made is.

His question was sorta like this.

If God is capable of creating a place such as heaven, where free will exist, yet there is no pain, no sorrow, no sin, nothing but unbelievable happiness...then why did God create the intermediate step of earth.

Why didn't he just create us in heaven in that perfect state. That way, no one would ever have had to suffer the way so many on earth have suffered, and no one would ever have to end up in hell?

I think it's a great question, and I think there's a great answer...I just don't know it, thouhjt maybe someone here might though.

[Felgar]

Felgar,

Are you saying that we will no longer have free wills in heaven? That's what the assumption he made is.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm of the opinion (currently) that in the New Heaven we will, in fact, lose our free will. I.E. We will NOT have the capacity to act against God's will. By the very definition of pain and death being the absence of God or the willfull disobediance of God, I believe that in order to rid our existance of that, we will necessarily be rid of the choice.

Now, that's not to say that we won't be free. I believe we'll be completely free to do things, to worship, to enjoy God's magnificent creation, to fellowship with others, etc. But in doing so, with our sinfull nature ENTIRELY cleansed, we will no longer be choosing to be with or against God. We are all with Him for we've made that choice, and our complete freedom will be such that we have no capability to stand against God.

Perhaps it will something like the Holy Spirit... God can do anything, but at the same time, He cannot act against Himself. Experiencing the fullness of God's precense, maybe we'll be similar in that our very nature precludes the possibility of acting against God. On the details, I'm not certain...

[CountryBoy]

Felgar,

I disagree (sorta kinda)...mostly I think, because I just don't like the notion of my free will being removed. I just don't think God, who is very concerned about leaving our free wills be, is suddenly going to rob them from us, and mechanize us once we arrive in heaven.

I think God has a free will...but goodness is built into His very nature and He'll never choose wrong...and I think that's the way we will be in heaven.
He will change our natures to be more like His.

I believe that's pretty much what you said in the end, you just started it off with

I'm of the opinion (currently) that in the New Heaven we will, in fact, lose our free will.

And again, that's why I like the question that other fellow asked, because I thing God can build goodness into our nature so that we would never choose wrong (because I think it will be that way in heaven). So, why the intermediate step?

[Silvertusk]

Think of this earth like a training ground if you were - to prepare us for our life in heaven.

The free will factor is a key here. God does not want robots to love him in heaven - he wants love given freely - which is the most powerful love of all - because it is true and sincere. On earth we choose whether we love God or not. Obviously because of freewill the unfortunate consequence of that is suffering because man can choose not to love God and be inhumane to other people.

On earth we are humbled and find God. In fact it is the perfect training ground to realise that we simply cannot do without God. Even if that seems slightly unfair - well at least God has an Eternity to make it up to us. But then we are prepared to love and worship God and love him with all of our heart - and in Heaven it will be our free will to do that - because of what we learnt down on earth.

That is my view on it anyway.

God Bless

Silvertusk

[CountryBoy]

Silvertusk,

I think that's about as good an answer as we're liable to get while we are here.

Although God COULD create a utopian environment where we were given the goodness built into our very souls (as He is), sorta what my vision of heaven seems to be. It would be like making us obey Him in a way, because we really wouldn't have anything to choose from...except the good stuff in heaven.

He seems to want us to choose Him while we're here, so the ones that get to heaven will never question why they are there. Although the heartaches, pain, cruelty, evil, (etc) down here seems like a terrible thing now, when we get there, it'll be clear why God found it all worth the extra effort.

I CAN"T WAIT!!!

[N4SC]

Someone is forgetting the beginning and the fall of man. The earth wasn't created like you see it today, full of sin and people born into sin.

[ageofknowledge]

A: The DEVIL!

[phoebe43]

From the point of view of an agnostic who really wants to believe, I just don't see the logic or "goodness" in God setting up this "training" on earth where we go through sorrow and suffering to learn to love God in some "new" world/heaven. You know, little infants that are killed, molested, mistreated, etc. didn't sign on for this "training." And, it seems like some things are just tragic...maybe what a lot of people are trying to do is create a reason to explain suffering and thus invent a God who set up this training...sorry to offend. I think, if there is a God, that he/she wants logic to be used b/c humans have brains and I just don't understand why the helpless suffer. Another issue is those that endure suffering and never learn from it nor does anyone else.

[cslewislover]

Yes, we are to love God with all our mind. Humans allowed evil to influence us over God, and it's had numerous consequences. I'm not totally sure about the training aspect, since it seems like we would be better off dying very young while we're more innocent. The bible does call us to endure through suffering, and that we'll be rewarded. As far as others are concerned, our view should be to help as much as possible. The fact is, suffering is a part of existence on this earth. Do we accept it and help to make things better, or sit around blaming God (when so much the suffering is caused by us anyway)?

[zoegirl]

you might find this interesting

our site owner used this recently

http://www.paradoxes.org/audio/natural_evil.htm

[Jac3510]

From the point of view of an agnostic who really wants to believe, I just don't see the logic or "goodness" in God setting up this "training" on earth where we go through sorrow and suffering to learn to love God in some "new" world/heaven. You know, little infants that are killed, molested, mistreated, etc. didn't sign on for this "training." And, it seems like some things are just tragic...maybe what a lot of people are trying to do is create a reason to explain suffering and thus invent a God who set up this training...sorry to offend. I think, if there is a God, that he/she wants logic to be used b/c humans have brains and I just don't understand why the helpless suffer. Another issue is those that endure suffering and never learn from it nor does anyone else.

May I suggest to you that the primary purpose isn't "training"? That would imply that you preexisted. God can't send you to training if you don't exist yet!

The fact that God can use the evil in this world to train us for future righteousness is only a sign of God's goodness. He can take something evil and use it for good, which I find to be a far higher view of His sovereignty than the rather silly idea that He wanted all this to happen so that we would be better "fit" for the next life. Thus, we have to explain evil as something not planned, not intended, and not desired, but something that can be used nonetheless.

Let me suggest a rather simple answer to your question.

I believe that EVERY bit of evil and suffering would cease IMMEDIATEDLY if everyone on this planet were to see their need for Christ and turn to Him now (that seems to be the biblical view, anyway). What is evil? In philosophical terms, it is a lack of goodness--a privation, if you like. Since good is that which God is, then evil is ultimately a lack of God. Murder, genocide, sickness, death . . . all these things are a lack of God, or more properly speaking, a disconnection from the right fellowship with God. Thus, to the degree that God is lacking, evil abounds.

The fundamental premise is this: you NEED God. Without Him, your life is worthless, meaningless, and an utter waste of time and space. Worse than that, you are only taking up the space and resources that could be someone else's! What is the point of life if there is no God? What is the point of YOUR life? There isn't one. We are just passing the time while we have it to pass. There was an eternity of nothing before us and there will be an eternity of nothing after us. All is meaningless.

Yet with God, there is goodness, purpose, meaning, love, etc. The great problem with man is that we don't see that, and in fact, we deny it. We deny our need for Him. And it is just here that the answer to the question of evil is found.

We NEED God, for the degree to which we lack Him we suffer evil. Yet we DENY our need for Him. God, rather than forcing Himself upon us, is letting us live in accordance with our belief, namely, that we don't need Him. God is letting us have the consequences of our choice. The Bible teaches that at the end of time, we will all see our need for Him, and He will be vindicated in His claim of necessity. All will voluntarily confess, after viewing the entirety of human history, that He was right and we were wrong. Our experience--the evidence--will be irrefutable.

Why, then, is there evil? Because we are trying to live without God. The day we return to Him, He will fix it all. We demand life without Him, so by and large, He lets us have our way. What is really funny is the fact that we shake our fists at Him and declare our independence, and then get mad at HIM when things go poorly and ask why HE didn't do something about it. Well, which is it? Do we need Him or not?

As you don't want to offend us, I don't want to offend you, but the irony of your question is that the question itself is what produces the suffering. As long as we keep our backs turned to Him, we will be like the child who is trying to tie his shoes but doesn't know how. God is simply waiting patiently until we throw our hands up in frustration and ask Him to fix it. When we do that, He will, and all will be well for all of eternity.

With that answer, let me turn the question on you:

If God doesn't exist, why in the world would you have the idea that this is anything other than normal? Your entire question presupposes that things "ought not" be this way. But does a fish feel wet? No, for all it knows is the water. Yet where did you get the idea things are evil? Do animals complain over rape and murder? Do they question why things are this way? No. You may say it is simply because they don't have reason, but what in the realm of reason would lead us to suggest that things ought to be any different than they are? There is nothing. It would seem to me that your desire for a better world stems from the fact that you know that this could be a better world, but that knowledge is rooted in a knowledge of goodness--objective, inherent goodness. Yet where did such an idea come from? If God doesn't exist, what is inherent goodness? How could such exist? If God does not exist, as Wayne admitted in the thread that Byblos linked you to in your introductory post, then there is no such thing as inherent goodness or inherent evil. Nothing is really right. Nothing is really wrong. But if that is the case, then nothing "ought" to be any particular way.

Yet I believe that you know inside of yourself that things really ought to be some way other than they are. There is such a thing as goodness, and the world we live in has some of that, but precious little. But again, if there is no God, then it makes no rational sense at all to say that things ought to be any different than they are; it is irrational to complain about the suffering in this world; it is nonsensical to say there is anything such as evil at all. Only if you acknowledge God's existence can any of those things that you have already recognized as true in this thread make sense.

The problem, then, is not how God could exist with so much evil in this world. The problem is how evil can exist in this world if there is no such thing as God.

God bless

[jlay]

Great post Jac.

And, it seems like some things are just tragic...maybe what a lot of people are trying to do is create a reason to explain suffering and thus invent a God who set up this training...sorry to offend.

This brings up a couple of things.

Is suffering real? You bet. No one knows better than God, as He gave His only son to suffer and die for you.
Often times we hear a lot of judging of God. "If God did this, then I don't like Him." Or, "If God allows suffering then I don't want to believe in Him." etc., etc.

Let's suppose there is no God. Then what is human suffering? Why is it tragic? Why is it any more significant than a bacteria dying in the light of the sun? Or a star burning out? If there is no purpose for the universe, then there is no meaning to suffering. And your interpretation of it is just an illusion of the mind created from hormones, and the firing of synapses that resulted from billions of years of biological accidents. Your ability to consciously take in the tragic nature of it all is just an illusion of your mind. It isn't significant. Kind of grim isn't it?
If there is no God, then who is responsible for all this suffering? Consider, that even taking natural disasters into account, most suffering in the world is man made. If there is no God then man is responsible for this suffering. I would argue that the same is true if there is a God.

I don't agree with president Obama. But, no matter how much I disagree with his policies, it has no bearing on his existence.
When I decided to have a child, I knew that this child would one day, lie, break my rules, get sick, perhaps suffer, and one day die. But knowing this reality I still had a child. This child has broken my rules. Did I cease to exist? Nope. Does my child's disobedience or poor health make me a bad father. Nope, not even with this foreknowledge.

many will say that the suffering in the world is evidence that either God doesn't exist, or that God is indifferent. However, this neglects another more obvious and meaningful answer. Could it be that the suffering in this world screams that there is something terribly wrong between God and man. The problem is sin. The answer is faith in Christ. And if everyone in this world came to Christ right now, suffering would end for all of mankind.

[ManOfScience]

I believe that EVERY bit of evil and suffering would cease IMMEDIATEDLY if everyone on this planet were to see their need for Christ and turn to Him now.

You might be right that, if everyone immediately turned to Christianity, the world would be a much better place. In fact, I'm sure you're right. I'm also sure the same would apply if everyone turned not to God, but to the Flying Spaghetti Monster instead.

However, in neither case would we find ourselves in a perfect world. There are still plenty of things for people to fight over. Money, property, land, women, soccer, etc., etc.

Without [God], your life is worthless, meaningless, and an utter waste of time and space.

I tend to disagree: I value my life quite highly.

What is the point of life if there is no God? What is the point of YOUR life?

You're right: there is no point. In fact, like has no point. Such a concept doesn't make sense, as all life came about through a series of (lucky?) random events.

There was an eternity of nothing before us and there will be an eternity of nothing after us. All is meaningless.

Agreed.

Why, then, is there evil? Because we are trying to live without God. The day we return to Him, He will fix it all.

If you're right... what a bastard, no?