Keeping the sabbath...?

[Gman]

I think that there must be a mutual respect.
Those that are convinced that by observing the Sabbath, they are honoring God, their view must be respected.
On the flip side, those who are convinced that the Sabbath is NOT needed because Christ is our Sabbath, must also be respected.
We truly need to heed Paul's words in this matter, the words in which he addresses the Sabbath and special days directly:
One man may see one day as special and another as all the same, let them a follow their conscience ( paraphrasing).
We should respect our opposing views that BOTH Honor God and Christ.

Just an fyi.. I have never questioned anyone's stance here with G-d on this issue.. Especially how it relates to salvation. I believe that is between you and the maker..

[B. W.]

Gman, your last post directed at me, well proves my point...

No point in commenting on your comments needed. Best I can add is, balance... That is all.

1 Co 10:29-33 "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. NKJV

Col 2:16-17, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." NKJV

Rom 14:4-8, "Who are you to judge someone else's servants? Whether they are faithful or not is their own master's concern. They will be faithful, because the Lord has the power to make them faithful. Some people consider one day to be more holy than another. Others think all days are the same. Each person should be absolutely sure in his own mind. Those who think one day is special do it to honor the Lord. Those who eat meat do it to honor the Lord. They give thanks to God. Those who don't eat meat do it to honor the Lord. They also give thanks to God. We don't live for ourselves alone. And we don't die all by ourselves. If we live, we live to honor the Lord. If we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. NIrV

I am happy for you that you desire to keep the mechanical aspects of the law to the letter. Have at it. I am also including a copy from the post on the law thread that applies here as well too..

---> Here are some interesting points to consider from the bible:

Romans 3:21, 22, "But now God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law. 22 We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else." NIrV

Romans 3:23, 24, 25, 26, "Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God's glory. 24 The free gift of God's grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free. 25 God gave him as a sacrifice to pay for sins. So he forgives the sins of those who have faith in his blood. God did all of that to prove that he is fair. Because of his mercy he did not punish people for the sins they had committed before Jesus died for them. 26 God did that to prove in our own time that he is fair. He proved that he is right. He also made right with himself those who believe in Jesus." NIrV

Romans 3:27, "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith." NASB

Romans 3:28, "We firmly believe that people are made right with God because of their faith. They are not saved by obeying the law." NIrV

Romans 3:29, 30, 31c, "After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." NLT

Romans 3:20 clarifies how the law is fulfilled / established / Confirms / aids the standing - purpose (of Torah Law) which is verified in Romans chapters 7, 9, and 10

"For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are." Romans 3:20 NIrV

Abraham - was he made righteous in God's sight by not eating pork - when was he made righteous – before circumcision or after?

Answer – before the Moses Law ever came. The Law was to lead people to their need for a savior, not to keep folks tied up with fear of breaking the mechanical aspects of Moses’ Law.

After all, a Gefilte Fish, lettuce, and tomato sandwich is not too appealing… but if one’s conscience wishes to not eat pork, no condemnation from me – go ahead and enjoy! I respect that. Keep the Saturn’s day Sabbath too – with blessings. No problem.

But if a person thinks eating pork (bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich) will send you to hell and not doing a mandatory Saturn’s day rest ensures one’s eternal d-mnation, then we have a problem.

That is how the law exposes what true sin is within the deceptive heart of human beings…
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[Jac3510]

Agreed, BW, with the added caveat that it isn't just about damnation. It's about whether or not he views those of us who do like the occasional BLT as sinning in doing so. Let him do whatever he wants with regard to his own walk with the Lord. Let him, though, take no stock or judgment of any kind on your walk with the Lord with reference to whether or not you keep the Law. As I have said before, it would be sin for Gman to violate his conscience at eat pork on his Saturday lunch break as it would violate his conscience (not because, as he proposes, it would violate the Law). As such, we should not try to tell him to do otherwise--and for us to try to get him to violate his conscience would be to contribute to his sin, which would be to sin ourselves. On the other hand, it would be sin for him to seek to impose his conscience on us. So let him have his law to himself, and let him pass no judgment on your freedom in Christ. He is not so bold as to claim that you will go to Hell for eating bacon, but then again, neither were the Galatian Judaizers. The question is only whether he believes that you are sinning in your failure to keep the Mosaic Law. That seems to me the obvious point at which the line should be drawn. Up to that line, it doesn't matter, but beyond it, there would be serious trouble, in my view.

[Gman]

Gman, your last post directed at me, well proves my point...

No point in commenting on your comments needed. Best I can add is, balance... That is all.

1 Co 10:29-33 "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. NKJV

We are also to judge correctly. And correction is not judgment nor condemnation. What does the Bible say about rebuking?

John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

1 Timothy 5:20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Titus 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Col 2:16-17, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." NKJV

Sorry... This just doesn't fly on many levels.. In the context of Colossians 2 we can clearly see in verse 8 that false teachers had engaged the Colossians to change G-d's laws into their own deceitful doctrine and theology.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Therefore we can clearly see that Paul was WARNING the Colossians of the false teachers that would judge them in Colossians 2:16-17. The Biblical festivals and Sabbaths were certainly not human tradition. They were ordained by G-d.

Therefore don't let a false teacher judge YOU when you observe a sabbath day or festival which is the future of what to come... And we can CLEARLY see from scripture that in the future that all mankind will bow before G-d EVERY Sabbath..

Ezekiel 44:24
In any dispute, the priests are to serve as judges and decide it according to my ordinances. They are to keep my laws and my decrees for all my appointed festivals, and they are to keep my Sabbaths holy.

Isaiah 66:24
“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.

The sabbath was always a PERMANENT covenant.. Everlasting...

Leviticus 16:31
It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.

Leviticus 23:39-41
So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the LORD for seven days; the first day is a day of sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of sabbath rest. 40 On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month.

Rom 14:4-8, "Who are you to judge someone else's servants? Whether they are faithful or not is their own master's concern. They will be faithful, because the Lord has the power to make them faithful. Some people consider one day to be more holy than another. Others think all days are the same. Each person should be absolutely sure in his own mind. Those who think one day is special do it to honor the Lord. Those who eat meat do it to honor the Lord. They give thanks to God. Those who don't eat meat do it to honor the Lord. They also give thanks to God. We don't live for ourselves alone. And we don't die all by ourselves. If we live, we live to honor the Lord. If we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. NIrV

Each person must be absolutely sure in his own mind" does NOT equate to "Do whatever you like." Being convinced in your own mind is dealing with doctrinal and practical disputes. Where scripture give a clear word, personal opinion must give way.. But where the Word of G-d is subject to various possible interpretations, let each be persuaded in his own mind while at the same time having respect for one another.

Paul never abrogated G-d's law... In fact he even teaches the dietary laws and other commandments in Acts 15...

Acts 15:20-21 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

I am happy for you that you desire to keep the mechanical aspects of the law to the letter. Have at it. I am also including a copy from the post on the law thread that applies here as well too..

---> Here are some interesting points to consider from the bible:

Romans 3:21, 22, "But now God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law. 22 We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else." NIrV

Actually what this verse seems to be implying is that G-d's righteousness has nothing to do with obeying G-d's commandments which is something that I've been trying to convey to you since the beginning.. Obedience is always a product of faith.

Romans 3:23, 24, 25, 26, "Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God's glory. 24 The free gift of God's grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free. 25 God gave him as a sacrifice to pay for sins. So he forgives the sins of those who have faith in his blood. God did all of that to prove that he is fair. Because of his mercy he did not punish people for the sins they had committed before Jesus died for them. 26 God did that to prove in our own time that he is fair. He proved that he is right. He also made right with himself those who believe in Jesus." NIrV

Yes. But we are also commanded to stop sinning..

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Romans 6:15-18 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 3:27, "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith." NASB

Romans 3:28, "We firmly believe that people are made right with God because of their faith. They are not saved by obeying the law." NIrV

Again.. I have never advocated that working or doing G-d's commandments makes you righteous. This is clearly evident throughout scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It's how they viewed His commandments and CHANGED them into legalism. But G-d's laws or commandments are NOT legalism themselves..

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

We know that G-d's laws are actually good... Not a curse when followed out correctly.

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Romans 3:29, 30, 31c, "After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." NLT

Again.. Having faith DOES NOT mean now that we destroy G-d's law... This is what satan wants us to do... Now go down to verse 31. Paul clearly states that we must ESTABLISH G-d's laws.

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Romans 3:20 clarifies how the law is fulfilled / established / Confirms / aids the standing - purpose (of Torah Law) which is verified in Romans chapters 7, 9, and 10

"For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are." Romans 3:20 NIrV

Abraham - was he made righteous in God's sight by not eating pork - when was he made righteous – before circumcision or after?

Answer – before the Moses Law ever came. The Law was to lead people to their need for a savior, not to keep folks tied up with fear of breaking the mechanical aspects of Moses’ Law.

After all, a Gefilte Fish, lettuce, and tomato sandwich is not too appealing… but if one’s conscience wishes to not eat pork, no condemnation from me – go ahead and enjoy! I respect that. Keep the Saturn’s day Sabbath too – with blessings. No problem.

Again Bryan.. I have never advocated that obeying G-d's commandments makes you righteous.. I have been always stating that obedience to G-d's commandments is the EVIDENCE or RESULT of faith in Christ.

But if a person thinks eating pork (bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich) will send you to hell and not doing a mandatory Saturn’s day rest ensures one’s eternal d-mnation, then we have a problem.

That is how the law exposes what true sin is within the deceptive heart of human beings…
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-
-

I don't believe that eating pork or obeying the sabbath is an issue of salvation... I never have. Do you really think we are going to impress G-d on judgement day by not eating pork? I wouldn't think so, but we obey regardless.

And truly, I never really liked that fatty pork anyway and I'm lazy by nature and like my days off so now I have a great excuse for both...

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Again Bryan.. I have never advocated that obeying G-d's commandments makes you righteous.. I have been always stating that obedience to G-d's commandments is the EVIDENCE or RESULT of faith in Christ.

G, would that also mean the opposite is true, that disobeying God's commandments is evidence that one doesn't have faith?

[Gman]

Gman wrote:
Again Bryan.. I have never advocated that obeying G-d's commandments makes you righteous.. I have been always stating that obedience to G-d's commandments is the EVIDENCE or RESULT of faith in Christ.

G, would that also mean the opposite is true, that disobeying God's commandments is evidence that one doesn't have faith?

My personal belief on this.. There are two types of people.. One that has the right motive but wrong direction.. Another may have the right direction but wrong motive. So the best obviously would be having the right motive AND the right direction.. Unfortunately, I believe that we really do have the right motive, but perhaps where we fail most is the wrong direction in our sin life.. At least I know I fall into that category.

[UsagiTsukino]

Pentecost was on a Sunday and they did meet on Sundays. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, and Acts 20:7. The Christians were at the time did meet in sats in the Jewish temples and meet at home since there were no church building. There is historical sources. 90AD DIDACHE: "Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day: 1. But every Lord's day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. 2. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. 3. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." (Didache: The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, Chapter XIV)

[Gman]

Pentecost was on a Sunday and they did meet on Sundays. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, and Acts 20:7. The Christians were at the time did meet in sats in the Jewish temples and meet at home since there were no church building.

Sure they would meet on Sundays... But not for the sabbath which was always on a Saturday. In fact the exchange of money would never happen on a Sabbath day.

[RickD]

Pentecost was on a Sunday and they did meet on Sundays. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, and Acts 20:7. The Christians were at the time did meet in sats in the Jewish temples and meet at home since there were no church building.

Sure they would meet on Sundays... But not for the sabbath which was always on a Saturday. In fact the exchange of money would never happen on a Sabbath day.

G, do you ever exchange money on Saturdays?

[Gman]

G, do you ever exchange money on Saturdays?

No.. The exchange of money is forbidden on the Sabbath. In fact some synagogues forbid even carrying a wallet on that day. I really like the Jewish way.

[UsagiTsukino]

However Christan are gentiles remember Jesus worked on the sabbath. We Christians are gentiles because we are not Jews. We aren't under mosaic law. We aren't required

[hughfarey]

The best reason I ever heard for going to church on Sunday was preached in a sermon by a Catholic priest. It was a story about a Christian family who were open with their faith and had brought their young children up to respect the conventions of the church as well as the stories of the bible. One sunny summer Sunday they decided to go for a picnic on the hills, and as they were packing up the food and the rugs for the grass and the folding chairs the little girl asked if they were going to miss Mass. One of her parents explained that God had made the day beautiful and that the glories of his creation would be all around them and that good Christians like themselves could worship God just as well in a buttercup meadow on a hillside as in a church. The little girl listened to all this solemnly, thought about it a moment, and then said: "But we won't, will we?"

[Gman]

However Christan are gentiles remember Jesus worked on the sabbath. We Christians are gentiles because we are not Jews. We aren't under mosaic law. We aren't required

Unfortunately that claim has been falsified. G-d doesn't say one thing to a group of people and then another thing to a different group. That is creating division in the body of Christ. There is only covenant for all and the Sabbath covenant is for all man. In fact there is coming a time in the future when all mankind will come to bow down to Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord

[RickD]

However Christan are gentiles remember Jesus worked on the sabbath. We Christians are gentiles because we are not Jews. We aren't under mosaic law. We aren't required

Unfortunately that claim has been falsified. G-d doesn't say one thing to a group of people and then another thing to a different group. That is creating division in the body of Christ. There is only covenant for all and the Sabbath covenant is for all man. In fact there is coming a time in the future when all mankind will come to bow down to Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord

Gman, Israel, to whom the sabbath laws were given, is not the body of Christ. So it doesn't create division within the body of Christ.
http://www.levitt.com/essays/israel-church

It is when the Church recognizes Israel that the true distinctiveness and glory of the Body of Christ becomes evident. This called-out body, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles during the Church Age, is the highest entity the Lord has created, superior to the universe, all the Angels, the nations, and Israel. Our Head, our Husband, our Friend is the Son of God Himself. We shall reign with Him when He rules the earth, and our 12 Founding Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. The Angels themselves will study us forever as the greatest exhibit of God’s grace, and we will actually judge the Angels. This is our destiny, and this writer, for one, would not trade his position in the Body of Christ with any creature in the universe! Why, then, be disturbed over what God has promised the Jewish people? Why be jealous over the future destiny of Israel? How short sighted of us! Indeed, the Church’s finest and most distinctive hour will be when Israel is restored nationally and spiritually to the Lord at the Second Coming of Christ. We will return from Heaven with Him as His glorious Bride to rule Israel and the world. What more could we ask?