Old & New Covenants

[BavarianWheels]

Kurieuo: Thread split from http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=143

Old testament laws do not apply to anybody other than the Jews of old.

Great!!

Then you wouldn't mind if someone come over to your house, rape and kill your mother (if you live with her) and do the same with your sister...then to leave, they steal your car. Oh...btw...the one that comes to do all these things...is not a Jew.

You'll have to just stand there with your mouth open.
.
.

[Mastermind]

Great!!

Then you wouldn't mind if someone come over to your house, rape and kill your mother (if you live with her) and do the same with your sister...then to leave, they steal your car. Oh...btw...the one that comes to do all these things...is not a Jew.

You'll have to just stand there with your mouth open.
.
.

Perhaps I did not make my point clear. Jesus reinforced what needed to be reinforced. We are to follow Jesus's law, not Moses's. And btw, if you follow the old testament, I hope you don't trim your hair because that would probably warrant a stoning. I also hope you sacrifice a bull from your stock every week or so and don't wear clothes made out of more than one material. Wouldn't want to be the village bonfire of the week.

Back to the issue at hand, if somebody walked into my house with evil intent, I would greet them crucifix in one hand and the Blessed Katana in the other. If he will not obey the laws the Spirit hath put in his heart, then he will obey the Katana I will put in the above mentioned heart.

[Anonymous]

Jesus said over and over that not one, "jot or tiddle" from the law will ever pass away. God never at any time in the bible revoked mosaic law. After Jesus left, apostles like Paul warned those of the new Jewish sect known as christianity not to annule their atonement to God through Jesus' death by viewing adherence to the law of moses as an accesory necessary for atonement. If God is the same yesterday today and tomarrow and the law was given to men from God through angels then it cannot be explained away.

I personally believe that much of the OT law is simply hogwash along with many of the stories therein.

And on time: the universe had a beginning yes but that does not necessarily indicate that the beginning we can observe is the only beginning that has ever been. Steven Hawkings has posited that the universe may cyclically begin and end and that our present universe could have burst forth, recalapsed and burst forth in some other existence. No one can ever find out what was 'before' the bursting forth of the universe or what could trigger it. In a sence the genesis of reality could not have been 'triggered' because before time existed cause and effect did not exist - also can one really call what was 'before' reality nothing since nothingness only makes sence in light of substance. And something comes from nothing all of the time - science has found the existence of ghost particles which pop in and out of reality within the space between matter - space before thought to be empty which in fact is full of these ghost particles. Although the fundemental nature of reality (the twelve or so precisely tuned physical constants - such as the attraction of sub atomic bodies and the strength of gravity) do indicate a carefulness in the construction of reality.

The universe can exist without a God but it seems plausible that there is a God if for no other reason than a sentience exists confined in the universe which can recognize a thing as a God which cannot 'exist' (that is, God is by definition not a defined and articulated machine or construct as everything in the universe is) within the confines of the universe.

[Kurieuo]

Jesus said over and over that not one, "jot or tiddle" from the law will ever pass away. God never at any time in the bible revoked mosaic law.

Matthew 22:36-39 -
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Jeremiah 31:31-34 -
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD .
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Hebrews 8:6-13 -
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

You have not demonstrated that the law of moses was revoked in scripture. It would be against the perminence of God's nature to revoke the law. The changes written about in the passages you cite refer to the ultimate renewing of reality that is outlined in revelation - for isn't it true that to know God men do have to study to know him? Currently the nature of God isn't plainly known to people but it is hidden thus the promise you cite is not fullfilled but is one which, if what the passage says is true, is a hope for the world - NOT present reality.

[Kurieuo]

You have not demonstrated that the law of moses was revoked in scripture.

Exodus 34:27-28 -
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.

Genesis 17:9-11 -
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

Romans 2:25 -
Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

Romans 3:10
"There is no one righteous, not even one;

Romans 3:19-20 -
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Luke 16:17 -
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matthew 5:17 -
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Romans 3:21-24 -
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Matthew 22:37-40 -
37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Romans 3:31 -
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Hebrews 7:18 -
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Colossians 2:13-17 -
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Currently the nature of God isn't plainly known to people but it is hidden thus the promise you cite is not fullfilled but is one which, if what the passage says is true, is a hope for the world - NOT present reality.

John 14:16-17 -
"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:21 -
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Romans 1:18-20,28 -
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse... since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

John 10:26-28 -
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

[Kurieuo]

Kurieuo well put...It is hard to argue against God's word...To argue agianst it, becomes a process of self-destruction Romans 1:18-25.

Truth of God is a powerful weapon...
2 Corithians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Truth of God is able to set us free...
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:1

Kurieuo may I add one thing to your list. That God did get rid of the ceremonial law. The Sacrifices, Rituals, Feast Days, etc. were purposed all to point to Christ as the answer, through faith.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. v25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The book of Galatians teaches the error of man trying to follow by the law alone. The law itself will not bring about God's love in our hearts, but its by faith we are justified. Than that faith produces the works of the law - love - in our hearts.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Again this is to build upon what Kurieuo stated. Also to show the liberty is that we can follow Jesus by faith, without bondage to the OT Law.

[BavarianWheels]

.
.
I think Jesus' words trumps all of the above "proof' texts that regard the law as the "old" covenant only for the Jews...

Jesus replied: " `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If these two "new" commands hang on the Law and the Prophets as Jesus says they do, and the "Old Testament" is the only Bible Jesus had...then the covenant is the same. The only change in the covenant is the promise Abraham looked forward to is fulfilled in Christ.

Paul also in Romans 3:31 asks the believer if by this [new] faith, do we then nullify the law? He says no, "rather we uphold the law."

As I've asked before, How does a Christian uphold the law that Paul admonishes us?

As an answer, I give as an example

In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Old Testament is the only Bible that was available to Paul...John...and the rest of the NT writers. Did they know they were writing "scripture"?

...and further I give also

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Deeds follow true faith.

The same covenant that credited Abraham with righteousness is the same covenant that credits you and I with righteousness. Abraham through the promise of a Messiah...and us through the known life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ...the Messiah.

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

Abraham was not saved by works, but his works proved his faith.

The same covenant given to Adam at the fall.

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

God made the first sacrifice...and thus is how Abel knew what was a correct offering...and also looked forward to a Messiah.

There is no Jew or Gentile in the fulfilled covenant...it never was solely for the Jew...in fact everyone in the household of the Jew was covered under the same covenant...slave...and otherwise.

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

No difference. The Lord is Lord of all!
.
.

[Jac3510]

If these two "new" commands hang on the Law and the Prophets as Jesus says they do, and the "Old Testament" is the only Bible Jesus had...then the covenant is the same. The only change in the covenant is the promise Abraham looked forward to is fulfilled in Christ.

Read that verse again, Bav. It doesn't say that these two laws hang on the Old Covenant. Is says that the old law hangs on THEM. THEY are foundational, not the other way around.

For everything else, I simply refer back to my previous comments.

[Mastermind]

Bav, for thy own sake I hope thou doth not shaveth thy hair nor weareth clothes of different materials, or I shalt have to stone thee.

[Anonymous]

"Old testament laws do not apply to anybody other than the Jews of old."

The mosaic Law of the Jews does not apply to Christians any longer. The reason being, that all of the laws were summed up in two of Christ's commandments:
1)Love God
2)Love your neighbour

If you will love God, you will learn to live morally and as the new scriptures describe. The latter commandment, provides peace among people and nations. What more is needed?

"You'll have to just stand there with your mouth open. "

I believe this is true though! hehe. We are told to "turn the other cheek" - and suffering brings fear of God, and fear of God blots out the will to sin, and sinlessness provides salvation!

In Christ,
Fr Andrew

[RGeeB]

Just reviving this old post in light of another discussion regarding fulfilment of the law..

It has been agreed that Jesus came to fulfil the law. It has also been agreed that the law will not pass away. Hence can the new covenant be looked upon this way? -

We don't come to God through our observance of the law. To Him, our efforts are like [poop]. We come to God through Jesus. Does that mean God accepts unrighteousness? No, but through being in Christ, we are made righteous. Christ has successfully negotiated this arrangement with God for us. Therefore, Christ fulfils the law and us being in Christ, we fulfil it as well.

So, does it not matter what we do in our lives? The way I look at it is - How do I prove that I live in Christ? What do I do that shows that I am in Him? This is answered through a personal relationship with Him. That leads to righteous living. Hence, pursuit of righteousness is the pursuit of Jesus. (Incidentally, Jesus has made this easy through the power of the Holy Spirit on Earth right now).

[Mastermind]

I'd like to put a little twist on that and say that our working to be righteousness doesn't matter either way. If we truly follow Christ, righteousness and salvation will come to us.

[RGeeB]

Thats true MM. I've always wonderded how I was to hunger and thirst after righteousness. Personifying it as Jesus just makes it simpler for me. ( Jeremiah 23:5-6)