I believe that what happens to us is not predestined.
However I believe that what we would do if any of an almost infinite number of things happen to us is predestined.
I'll give you an example: Lets say wife beating goes down when the economy goes up and vice versa in almost lock step.
Even if that does not happen for the sake of argument let's say it does.
I'm not just pulling this example out of the air
That would mean there are lots of men who would be not beating their wives who would if the economy were worse and vice versa.
If I had the time and energy I could give you many such examples.
One can argue that a person that keeps jaywalking and finally gets hit by a car was "predestined" to get hit by a car.
Predestination can mean a few different things of course.
PaulSacramento wrote:One can argue that a person that keeps jaywalking and finally gets hit by a car was "predestined" to get hit by a car.
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about.
Predestination can mean a few different things of course.
Because what happens to us sometimes influences our choices to an extent we cannot control, depending on how we are made. I suppose serial killers and sex offenders have as much choice as "normal" people?
I kind of doubt it. But I'll admit I could be wrong if those who disagree can extend me the same courtesy. Those that can't can take a long walk on a short pier
PaulSacramento wrote:One can argue that a person that keeps jaywalking and finally gets hit by a car was "predestined" to get hit by a car.
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about.
Predestination can mean a few different things of course.
As the late great Vincent Price might say "Cute."
You need to work on your quoting skills.
In regards to your example:
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about
.
If a person is "predestined" to be a criminal then there is no "otherwise" to it, hence my statement that predestination means different things to different people.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Proverbs 16:9 puts to death the idea of predestination. Compare with Pr 16:1 and Ruth 1:21.
FL
Could I have a little clarity on what you mean here?
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
-Galileo Galilei What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
-A.W. Tozer
PaulSacramento wrote:One can argue that a person that keeps jaywalking and finally gets hit by a car was "predestined" to get hit by a car.
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about.
Predestination can mean a few different things of course.
As the late great Vincent Price might say "Cute."
You need to work on your quoting skills.
In regards to your example:
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about
.
If a person is "predestined" to be a criminal then there is no "otherwise" to it, hence my statement that predestination means different things to different people.
No.
You may be predestined to be a criminal if your brain is damaged a certain admittedly extremely unlikely way.
But otherwise not. Some of us may take less to become one. No right kind of stimulus, no criminality.
Because what happens to us sometimes influences our choices to an extent we cannot control, depending on how we are made. I suppose serial killers and sex offenders have as much choice as "normal" people?
Which would suggest we're at the disposal to our fellow humans and the natural world. Since we have cause and effect in our dimension of time I would think that anything happening to us or others is more random chance than predestination. Just because you might know an outcome (God) doesn't mean it was predestined to be.
Or take genetic defects, physical or mental. That can be attributed to bad genetic pairing. Or unfortunate random mutation.
PaulSacramento wrote:One can argue that a person that keeps jaywalking and finally gets hit by a car was "predestined" to get hit by a car.
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about.
Predestination can mean a few different things of course.
As the late great Vincent Price might say "Cute."
You need to work on your quoting skills.
In regards to your example:
Not in my context. I mean more in the theological. If the person hit somehow becomes a criminal when he wouldn't otherwise. Or the driver. That is an example of what I am talking about
.
If a person is "predestined" to be a criminal then there is no "otherwise" to it, hence my statement that predestination means different things to different people.
No.
You may be predestined to be a criminal if your brain is damaged a certain admittedly extremely unlikely way.
But otherwise not. Some of us may take less to become one. No right kind of stimulus, no criminality.
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Proverbs 16:9 puts to death the idea of predestination. Compare with Pr 16:1 and Ruth 1:21.
FL
Could I have a little clarity on what you mean here?
Yeah...I wasn't clear at all. My mind went schizoïd on this one. On one hand, I was answering the non-believer understanding of pre-destination, which they think is fate; and on the other hand, I gave Bible quotes showing pre-destination! From a biblical point-of-view, pre-destination means divine decree, a trial prepared beforehand, an appointed event, and so on. All of these are ordained by God for the working out of His will.
So, to sum up: Fate is unbiblical, free will is biblical and God directs all events - even the most minute - for His glory.
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Proverbs 16:9 puts to death the idea of predestination. Compare with Pr 16:1 and Ruth 1:21.
FL
Could I have a little clarity on what you mean here?
Yeah...I wasn't clear at all. My mind went schizoïd on this one. On one hand, I was answering the non-believer understanding of pre-destination, which they think is fate; and on the other hand, I gave Bible quotes showing pre-destination! From a biblical point-of-view, pre-destination means divine decree, a trial prepared beforehand, an appointed event, and so on. All of these are ordained by God for the working out of His will.
So, to sum up: Fate is unbiblical, free will is biblical and God directs all events - even the most minute - for His glory.
FL
So you take some sort of Compatibilist view? Would you consider yourself a Molinist?
I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.
-Galileo Galilei What comes into our minds when we think about God, is the most important thing about us.
-A.W. Tozer
