Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.



3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

[ClassicalTeacher]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.



3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

[Danieltwotwenty]

[Silvertusk]

It would be nice if someone took the time to answer those questions - just as a point of reference to refer to if anyone asks us those questions in real life.

I am a little busy at the moment though.

Silvertusk.

[RickD]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

[PaulSacramento]

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

Google is your friend....

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

A

. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

None of those , NONE, are like the Trinity doctrine.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?

The trinity and hellfire were being taught long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

First off, Jesus ( quoting Isaiah) was referring to Himself, not people that have turned away from God.

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

Actually, the places of "Sheol", "Hades" and "the grave" are ALSO know as "hell", not the other way around.

7

. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

The bible teaches of an immortal spirit and makes it clear that the soul can die/be killed.

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

While some translate "deity" as Godhead ( KJV), you will not find those words literal terms in the bible.

[PaulSacramento]

The Trinity doctrine has no pagan "counter-part".
It is a unique doctrine of Christianity.
It states that God is a Triune being, a spiritual being of perfect harmony that exists between what we know to be:
Father, Son and HS.
They share the same nature BUT are not the same persons.
Because God is a Triune, God is pure other-centered Love.
IF at any point God was "just the Father" then God had no one to love, other than Himself and that would have made Him "self-centered", hence inferior to a "other-centered being and this, NOT God.

[PaulSacramento]

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

[ClassicalTeacher]

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

Google is your friend....

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

A

. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

None of those , NONE, are like the Trinity doctrine.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?

The trinity and hellfire were being taught long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

First off, Jesus ( quoting Isaiah) was referring to Himself, not people that have turned away from God.

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

Actually, the places of "Sheol", "Hades" and "the grave" are ALSO know as "hell", not the other way around.

7

. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

The bible teaches of an immortal spirit and makes it clear that the soul can die/be killed.

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

While some translate "deity" as Godhead ( KJV), you will not find those words literal terms in the bible.

Paul: I just want you to know that she pulled the same nonsense at another forum to which I belong. And, the good, Christian members went to great lengths to respectfully counter her arguments with Scripture AND even one good man with Greek language support of the Trinity. She will ignore everything that you say and just come back with the same questions over and over again. She will not answer anyone else's questions and then accuse everyone of "mudslinging" and persecuting her for being a jw. It is an exercise in total frustration.

[Alter2Ego]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

ALTER2EGO -to- RICK D:
This will likely be my only communication with you, particularly in light of the tone of your above message and your announcement on the open forum to another person who objects to my trinity thread.

Below are the weblinks to two threads that I started at a political website, which I joined a couple weeks ago. That's where ClassicalTeacher and I ran into each other for the very first time.

At the website in question, not one, but three different Trinitarian moderators showed up in my "trinity" thread playing the roles of cheerleaders, while the regular Trinitarian members proceeded to sling mud at me with the blessings of the moderators over there. The fact that you showed up in my trinity thread, making comments to another regular member about me, when you don't know either one of us--but you will be using what that person says to decide if I am a Christian-- says one thing: the welcome mat here is about to be withdrawn where I am concerned.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post596589
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post598102

Each of the weblinks above will take you to a post by me. Within each of my posts will be weblinks to specific comments by others about me and to me.


Let me know if you want me gone, and I will take my leave.

[Alter2Ego]

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

Google is your friend....

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I don't follow. I didn't ask anybody to tell me about Google. I asked for scriptures from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that is supposed to support the dogmas of a triune god and literal hellfire torment. I assume you can produce verses from the Bible, since apparently you believe in both dogmas? If so, please present your first four verses. After we have discussed the first four verses, you may then present another four verses.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

Actually, Christendom's trinity is simply another version of the pagan examples that I provided in my OP.

I will address the remainder of your post at another time.

[RickD]

Alter2Ego, you haven't broken any rules here. And as long as you're here to discuss(and part of discussion is listening), then you'll be fine.

[Alter2Ego]

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

You are looking at two different subjects, first off and Jesus did indeed mention the fires of Ghenna, which is where the notion of "hellfire" developed from. It was "refined" based on the "Lake of Fire" from Revelations.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I am aware that trinity and literal hellfire torment are two different subjects.

If you will, please quote the verses and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you are getting the above comments about Gehenna and the "Lake of Fire." In that way, others can easily follow along in their own Bibles. Be sure and explain why you believe the verses are with reference to literal hellfire torment. Can you do that?

[Alter2Ego]

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?

The trinity and hellfire were being taught long before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
So you say. If you don't mind, I would like for you to quote scriptures from within God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, where trinity and literal hellfire were taught--prior to it being taught by the Christianized Romans (who later called themselves Roman Catholics).

[Silvertusk]

classicalteacher wrote:
Hi Alter....still using the same arguments to corrupt the Holy Scriptures in favor of your man-written watchtower bible, I see! Did you copy and paste from RO? LOL! Where ya gonna go next??

I take it that you two know each other?

ClassicalTeacher, any info you have about Alter2Ego could you please pm me? Occasionally we get people here that claim to be Christians, who are really only here to promote some unorthodox theology. 1stJohn0666 was our latest example. I don't think any of us have a problem discussing this stuff as long as people are genuinely seeking answers. Please pm me.

Thanks

ALTER2EGO -to- RICK D:
This will likely be my only communication with you, particularly in light of the tone of your above message and your announcement on the open forum to another person who objects to my trinity thread.

Below are the weblinks to two threads that I started at a political website, which I joined a couple weeks ago. That's where ClassicalTeacher and I ran into each other for the very first time.

At the website in question, not one, but three different Trinitarian moderators showed up in my "trinity" thread playing the roles of cheerleaders, while the regular Trinitarian members proceeded to sling mud at me with the blessings of the moderators over there. The fact that you showed up in my trinity thread, making comments to another regular member about me, when you don't know either one of us--but you will be using what that person says to decide if I am a Christian-- says one thing: the welcome mat here is about to be withdrawn where I am concerned.
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post596589
http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... post598102

Each of the weblinks above will take you to a post by me. Within each of my posts will be weblinks to specific comments by others about me and to me.


Let me know if you want me gone, and I will take my leave.

You really should not have posted those links. All I read there was good honest people giving you a wealth of answers and rebutation to your questions and you completely ignored most of them. So what are you expecting to get out of this forum?