Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

A2E, you keep mentioning the "Judeo-Christian" bible. Are you referring to a specific translation that you want people to quote?

And also, for the most part, people disagree about these issues because we have different interpretations of scripture. So, when Jac for example asks you why you believe verse x says y, he is trying to see how you came to the interpretation of that verse. Or, if you claim verse x says y, you need to explain why you believe it says that. You can't just say a verse says something without explaining why it says what you believe it says.

ALTER2EGO -to- RICKD:
The term "Judeo-Christian" refers to any version of the Bible that contains both the Hebrew (Old Testament) books and the Greek (New Testament) books, for a total of 66 books.

I am positive that Jac3510 does not need you to come to his/her defense since Jac3510 is doing an excellent job of evading very clear and straight forward Biblical accounts. Not only did I quote scriptures, I told Jac3510 why I quoted them. So I frankly don't understand why you are now falling for Jac3510's line where he/she claims to not understand how I reached my conclusions? Let me go over it with you again.

Jac3510 claims Jehovah (the Father) and Jesus Christ (the Son) are in all places at all times and that they are the same god within the trinity. So I quoted two verses of scripture as a rebuttal to Jac3510's fallacious statement. Below is part of that conversation:


TAKEN FROM PAGE 4 OF THIS THREAD (my very first post on the page):
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 6&start=45

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: Jesus was on earth getting baptized. Matthew 3:17 says Jehovah's voice came from heaven. According to your sense of direction, are earth and heaven the same location? YES or NO?

Heaven and earth are not in the same location. I still don't see why you think that since a voice came from heaven that the Father and the Son are in different places. I really would be interested in the answer to that question.

Notice that within my question, I clearly stated that Jesus was on earth getting baptized and that verse 17 said the voice of Jehovah (the Father) came from heaven. That equates to: The Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ) were not at the same place at the same time, because that is what Matthew 3:16-17 states.


To get around what is clearly stated in any part of the Bible, those who choose not to accept correction from the Bible will of course make the claim that any verse of scripture that debunks their personal philosophy is "open to interpretation."

[Danieltwotwenty]

Notice that within my question, I clearly stated that Jesus was on earth getting baptized and that verse 17 said the voice of Jehovah (the Father) came from heaven. That equates to: The Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ) were not at the same place at the same time, because that is what Matthew 3:16-17 states.

Jeremiah 23:24 states that God is everywhere, if God is everywhere how can his voice come from heaven if God is also on the Earth?

Can you answer any of the questions everyone has asked of you? So far I have seen people answer your questions but I have yet to see you answer all of theirs.

[Jac3510]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
For the benefit of those reading this thread, let me explain what Jac3510 is doing:

1. By using the strategy that he/she is objecting to what I think instead of what I quoted the Bible as saying, Jac3510 is able to justify--at least in Jac3510's mind--that he/she is rejecting what I think rather than rejecting the Judeo-Christian Bible. Notice Jac3510's strategy below.

Actually, I'm just trying to understand why you think that the Bible says what the Bible says. There's nothing nefarious in the term "you think"--there's no ulterior motive. If you would like, we could just remove the phrase "you think" all the way around. I could ask my question this way:

Where does the Bible say the three Persons are "in different places at the same time"?

I don't really expect an answer from you, which is fine. You've made quite a habit of not answering other people's questions. But maybe you'll surprise me!

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
You know you are lying. I answered you with the scriptures. It's not my problem that you object to what the Bible says and that you want to make it about what I think. That's the strategy you are working with. It's how you are able to bypass what the Bible is saying by insisting that I tell you what I think.

I'm lying?

Funny. I can't help but note that you didn't answer AGAIN the question I asked you THREE TIMES in that very post. Then there's the questions SoA asked. And the questions Daniel asked. And the questions . . . okay, well, I think we all get the point. Everyone asks questions, and you just ignore them. Yeah . . . someone's a liar in this thread all right.

I tell you what. You want answers from me? You have to answer my questions. When you answer the simple question I've been asking you OVER AND OVER, I'll get around to providing specific verses for both the hypostatic union and the Trinity. That's how we'll play, or we won't play at all. You ask me a question, I answer. I ask you a question, you answer.

Anything less, I'm going to simply going to follow Solomon's advice in Prov 26:4.

I have a rather strong feeling you're about to join a very elite club of people on my permignore list. Now, this is where you complain about obfuscation and refusing to be corrected by Scripture. Don't forget to play the victim card and beat your chest about how you've clearly shown and understood my strategy. I mean, we both know that I'm in bed fretting over the fact that you found me out. OHMYGODALTER2EGOHASDESTROYEDMYARGUMENTSWHATWILLIDOIKNOWIWILLRUNAWAYBECAUSESHEISTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSMART4ME!!11!1!1



fdit: I'm thinking now's about the time to start the office pool . . . she'll obviously write us off as yet one of the many Trinitarian sites she's conquered, but that's what [insert favorite ad homimen here] do. They preach, get banned, and then pretend that they're the victim.

[Alter2Ego]

In other words, this is about what you have chosen to believe and not about what is written within God's inspired word, the Bible. CORRECT?

As far as I can see of what Jac has written it is what he believes based on what the Bible says, the Bible says God is omnipresent Jeremiah 23:24 and in light of all the passages that affirm the trinity (which I won't list as I really don't want to get drawn into this debate as there are more schooled people already here.) we must conclude that Jesus would be omnipresent also as he is fully divine.

Dan

ALTER2EGO -to- DANIEL TWO TWENTY:
I read Jeremiah 23:24, and it does not say a thing about God being omnipresent. If you had bothered to read the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to Jeremiah 23:24), you would have realized that the verse is with reference to God turning attention specifically to the ancient Israelites who were rebelling against him. Not only that, the context to Jeremiah 23:24 is overrun with figurative speech. For instance, part of the context states:

"'Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasturage!' is the utterance of Jehovah." (Jeremiah 23:1)


Are we to understand that God is referring to literal shepherds and literal sheep in a literal pasturage? Of course not. The context explains that the "shepherds" are the religious leaders and the "sheep" are the ordinary Israelites who are being misguided by the false religious leaders, as follows:

"Therefore this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said against the shepherds who are shepherding my people: 'You yourselves have scattered my sheep; and you keep dispersing them, and you have not turned your attention to them. Here I am turning my attention upon you for the badness of your dealings,' is the utterance of Jehovah." (Jeremiah 23:2)


Throughout the entire chapter 23 (from which you cherry picked verse 24 and ignored everything else) this type of figurative speech is used, followed by literal speech where God explains what he means. For instance, he explains who the shepherds are:

"For both the prophet and the priest themselves have become polluted. Also in my own house I have found their badness," is the utterance of Jehovah." (Jeremiah 23:11)


The account then goes on to say what God will do to the religious leaders as punishment--and it includes figurative speech, as follows:

"Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said against the prophets: 'Here I am making them eat wormwood, and I will give them poisoned water to drink. For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has gone forth to all the land." (Jeremiah 23:15)


Are we to understand that God will literally make the apostate religious leaders eat wormwood and drink poisoned water? Of course not. Those terminologies are used as a means of indicating to the reader that the religious leaders will be destroyed by Jehovah.


By the time we reach Jeremiah 23:23-24, which you claim is proof of an omnipresent God, it becomes evident to those who have paid attention to the context that Jehovah is saying he intends to take action against the rebellious religious leaders from among the ancient Israelites because people cannot hide their wrong doing from him.

The part about him being in all places at the same time is entirely in the minds of those who have chosen to believe things that are not stated in the Bible.

[ClassicalTeacher]

This woman does indeed need help.

I think you are right. How should we approach someone so hostile?

FL

There is no reasoning with this lady. She is stuck like a broken record... She is convinced of her own righteousness and refuses to even acknowledge that her statements could be wrong. That, for most Christians, is an indication of haughty pride--which is the mother of all sins. I think the best thing is just to ignore her posts. If no one responds to her, she has no excuse for writing more of her nonsense. She tried to start an evolution vs. creation thread at my other forum and people just started ignoring her posts and would post silly things that had absolutely nothing to do with what she wanted to "discuss". In some of the other forums where she's been, they just banned her--and I can't say that I blame them because she was posting all this jw nonsense on body-building and muscle-head forums. The members were totally incredulous over her obnoxious insistence on challenging them on a religious topic. That takes either a lot of moxie or a lot of stupidity. She eventually left in a huff from my other forum because she said we were all "mudslinging" and "persecuting" her. Yeah....right!

[ClassicalTeacher]

What you are observing is a perfect demonstration of what happens when people refuse to be corrected by the scriptures and decide to put human philosophies and pagan ideologies above what is stated in the Bible. This is how Trinitarians maintain the nonsensical belief in a 3-prong god. They make things up as they go while they kick the Bible to the curb.
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It's interesting you say this when the Watchtower has a notorious history of tampering with the Bible and coming out with one of the worst translations out there. Just taking a look at the translations to the NWT or to why some verses were changed says so much about the cult. So it seems ironic you would call Christians out for not following the Bible when the Jehovah'a Witnesses are well known for twisting the Bible to their pre-concieved views.

But in Alter2Ego's defense, I haven't seen much Scripture in defense of the Trinity. She has ignored me for the past few weeks (in this thread and in the evolution thread) so someone else should take the lead here.

SonofAletheia: She was presented with copious Scripture verses from the O.T. and the N.T. which clearly show the Trinitarian reality on RO. There were 3 members who went to great lengths and spent a lot of time finding and typing many verses to prove her wrong. She ignored all of them. Why should she then be allowed to do the same thing here? She will ignore all of the verses or she will brush them away like a pesty fly with statements that the verses were taken out of context, or to claim that only she understands the meaning of the scriptures. We went round and round with her for days on this very topic. There were over 19 pages of comments on this very topic at RO. Finally, she went off in a huff. I've made several comments to her directly about her use of "Judeo-Christian bible" when, in fact, the jw watchtower "bible" was re-written to support their beliefs. Of course, no one ever gets a comment refuting that....typical M.O.

[Alter2Ego]

Notice that within my question, I clearly stated that Jesus was on earth getting baptized and that verse 17 said the voice of Jehovah (the Father) came from heaven. That equates to: The Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ) were not at the same place at the same time, because that is what Matthew 3:16-17 states.

Jeremiah 23:24 states that God is everywhere, if God is everywhere how can his voice come from heaven if God is also on the Earth?

ALTER2EGO -to- DANIEL TWO TWENTY:
You tell me. Especially since Jeremiah 23:24 is not stating that God is everywhere. That's what you claim it is saying. Maybe you should ask God in prayer why he inspired Matthew to lie when Matthew wrote the following:

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

[Alter2Ego]

Can you answer any of the questions everyone has asked of you? So far I have seen people answer your questions but I have yet to see you answer all of theirs.

ALTER2EGO -to- DANIEL TWO TWENTY:
I suggest you go back and read through all 6 pages of this thread and see how many questions I asked and got no answers to. Then count the questions that were asked of me by the same people that are evading my questions.

Meanwhile, what questions have you answered from my opening post, while you claim I am not answering questions from others?

[ClassicalTeacher]

Alter2Ego, please read this to get an understanding about which you're arguing against:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union
If you have any questions, or don't understand, please ask.

I think you need to understand who we believe Christ is, before you argue against what we believe. Your points against Jac just show me that you really don't understand who Christ is according to scripture.

ALTER2EGO -to- RICKD:
I am well informed on the dogma of trinity.

As a rule, I do not debate moderators. I have not had good experiences with them during debates because they tend to pull the rank card when they have a stake in the debate. For the time being, I will play it by ear.


During debates, I don't do links. So please do the following:

1. Summarize what your source is saying or briefly quote the portion that you want to bring to my attention.

2. Prove what your source is saying with scriptures from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

3. Be sure and present scriptures that prove the following:

(a) the "hypostatic union"

(b) Jehovah, Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit/holy ghost are "persons" combined into a single "Godhead"

(c) All three "persons" of the trinity are co-equal and co-eternal with the same will and the same intellect AT ALL TIMES.


BTW: I would prefer that we do no more than four verses of scriptures at a time before we move onto another four verses of your choice.

Will you listen to Miss know-it-all making demands here!!!! Gimme a break already! And, she DOES debate with mods--she did so numerous time at RO and then accused the mods of persecuting her....

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

There is no reasoning with this lady. She is stuck like a broken record...

She's a poor woman. Like an atheist, with the same horrible eternal fate.

FL

[ClassicalTeacher]

There is no reasoning with this lady. She is stuck like a broken record...

She's a poor woman. Like an atheist, with the same horrible eternal fate.

FL

FL: You are too kind. But you are correct. There have been many in the past who have clung to their errors as if it was a virtue to do so. I would say she's rather pathetic, actually. As I said, she needs lots of prayers.

[Danieltwotwenty]

If you had bothered to read the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to Jeremiah 23:24), you would have realized that the verse is with reference to God turning attention specifically to the ancient Israelites who were rebelling against him. Not only that, the context to Jeremiah 23:24 is overrun with figurative speech. For instance, part of the context states:

I have read Jeremiah in it's entirety many times and I find it rather insulting that you say I haven't even bothered to read it. I do agree however with the context you have laid out, Jeremiah was written because the Israelites had turned their back on God. Jeremiah does use figurative speech and hyperbolic language to convey his message to the people.

"'Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasturage!' is the utterance of Jehovah." (Jeremiah 23:1)


Are we to understand that God is referring to literal shepherds and literal sheep in a literal pasturage? Of course not. The context explains that the "shepherds" are the religious leaders and the "sheep" are the ordinary Israelites who are being misguided by the false religious leaders, as follows:

So here you are interpreting the text and I have no issues with this as it seems correct. The dictionary say that sheep can mean people who follow and shepherd can also be religious leaders of a flock (which can mean a group of people)and the pastures are obviously the land they live in. So really most of these words here can be interpreted as literal because that is what the words mean, the only word here that really needs interpretation would be pastures.

By the time we reach Jeremiah 23:23-24, which you claim is proof of an omnipresent God, it becomes evident to those who have paid attention to the context that Jehovah is saying he intends to take action against the rebellious religious leaders from among the ancient Israelites because people cannot hide their wrong doing from him.

Exactly right but your missing one thing, lets break the verse down.

Jeremiah 23:24

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord

Ok the first part is easy, God is talking to the religious leaders saying that noone can hide from him meaning he is present everywhere and that he knows everything they have done(omnipotent). The second part also seems fairly straight forward, God says that he fills Heaven and Earth, how can God fill both Heaven and Earth and know everyones hiding place unless he is present everywhere all at the same time, logic dictates that he must be omnipresent.

If you have an alternative explanation of why God says he fills both Heaven and Earth, please break it down.
If this doesn't litterally mean what it says what is your alternative explanation?

Matthew 18:20 says "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Here Jesus is giving a lesson on how to treat a believers who sin, at the end of this he says “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.” Here he is letting them know that if there is agreement on an issue the Father will do it and at the end "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”. Now tell me how can God be at every event where there are two or more gathered in his name unless he is omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.


This indicates that we cannot flee from Gods spirit, it is everywhere, in Heaven, in Sheol, all over the Earth. If we cannot flee from his presence, that must mean that he is omnipresent.

Now you say I am cherry picking verses, but that is not true as I understand the context in which they are written and the meaning still remains exactly the same.

I suggest you go back and read through all 6 pages of this thread and see how many questions I asked and got no answers to. Then count the questions that were asked of me by the same people that are evading my questions.

Meanwhile, what questions have you answered from my opening post, while you claim I am not answering questions from others?

I have read this thread since the beginning and also the other thread you created, in both threads you chose to ignore questions and as far as I can see everyone has answered your question but I can see now since the conversation has not gone both ways they are starting to give up and frankly I don't blame them.

You tell me. Especially since Jeremiah 23:24 is not stating that God is everywhere. That's what you claim it is saying. Maybe you should ask God in prayer why he inspired Matthew to lie when Matthew wrote the following:

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

I disagree with your interpretation of Jeremiah and I am yet to see a break down of what that exact verse means in your words.

The voice certainly appeared to the onlookers to come from the sky but since God is omnipresent he exists within Jesus and everywhere throughout the Earth and also in Heaven. I don't see how this passage is against the trinity at all, if anything it affirms the trinity, the Father, Son and Spirit are all present in this one verse.

Kind regards

Dan

[PaulSacramento]

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

Take off your JW filter glasses and you will see them.

[PaulSacramento]

Personally I find the fact that the term "Jehovah" ( which is NOT in the bible) keeps being used by someone that is critical of the term Trinity being used because it is not in the bible, quite humorous.

I think that from now on I am going to take the Hebrew consonants of the name Yaheshua and the vowels of the the Greek Ieosus and make up a new name for Jesus : Yeohus

Now all I have to do is passed it off as Jesus' real name and ignore the fact that it isn't and that its a translation mistake.

I will also re-translate the bible according to my own preconceived doctrines and remind everyone that Christ's invisible rule started in 1914, even though there is NOTHING in the bible that mentions an "invisible rule".
I will also make it clear that the 144k in revelations is a literal number BUT only figurative in regards to WHO they are.
I will also repeatedly tell my followers that the end of the world is near, giving out random dates like 1914, 1970 and so forth and tell people to be witnesses to a made up name, even though that go against what is Explicitly taught in ACTS 1:

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Oh wait, someone group already did all that !

Darn it.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

FL: You are too kind.

That's the first time I've been accused of kindness! (Ivellious...did you read what the nice lady said about me?!)

Anyway, Alter2Ego really does need prayer. The Watchtower Society is such a powerful lie that I don't even bother to discuss with Jehovah's Witnesses anymore.

Witnesses are beyond reasoning; prayer is the only answer to their predicament.

FL