Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Alter2Ego]

If you had bothered to read the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to Jeremiah 23:24), you would have realized that the verse is with reference to God turning attention specifically to the ancient Israelites who were rebelling against him. Not only that, the context to Jeremiah 23:24 is overrun with figurative speech. For instance, part of the context states:

I have read Jeremiah in it's entirety many times and I find it rather insulting that you say I haven't even bothered to read it. I do agree however with the context you have laid out, Jeremiah was written because the Israelites had turned their back on God. Jeremiah does use figurative speech and hyperbolic language to convey his message to the people.

ALTER2EGO -to- DANIEL TWO TWENTY:
Let me rephrase my above statement: If you had bothered to read and pay attention to the context, you would have realized that Jeremiah 23:24 is with reference to God turning his attention specifically to the ancient Israelites who were rebelling against him and that it is not saying that God is "omnipresent."

"'Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasturage!' is the utterance of Jehovah." (Jeremiah 23:1)

Are we to understand that God is referring to literal shepherds and literal sheep in a literal pasturage? Of course not. The context explains that the "shepherds" are the religious leaders and the "sheep" are the ordinary Israelites who are being misguided by the false religious leaders, as follows:

So here you are interpreting the text and I have no issues with this as it seems correct. The dictionary say that sheep can mean people who follow and shepherd can also be religious leaders of a flock (which can mean a group of people)and the pastures are obviously the land they live in. So really most of these words here can be interpreted as literal because that is what the words mean, the only word here that really needs interpretation would be pastures.

Sheep and shepherd is figurative speech whenever those words are applied to humans. Those two words are never literal when applied to human beings. The fact that you are arguing that it is literal proves my point, that you are applying literal meaning to words that are symbolic rather than literal in meaning.

[Danieltwotwenty]

ALTER2EGO -to- SON OF ALETHEIA:
Speak for yourself. I happen to believe that you are an atheist and that you don't care anything about any conversation where the Bible is concerned. In fact, you showed up earlier making derogatory comments about the New World Translation. So your sudden interest in the cherry picked words that were isolated from the context of several verses is suspicious, at best.


The only person that sees literal hellfire torment in those words are people who cherry pick words from entire verses and ignore everything else. That's exactly what PaulSacramento did. Whenever people isolate a few words from an entire verse and ignore everything else, it indicates they are not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Danieltwotwenty did the same thing with Jeremiah 23:24. When I showed Danieltwotwenty the context, he/she continued to argue that Jeremiah 23:24 means what he/she says it means. That is exactly the response I will get from PaulSacramento if I show him/her the context to the words that he/she cherry picked above. That's why I asked PaulSacramento to explain where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the entire verses (as opposed to a few words that PaulSacramento isolated).



Since you insist that the cherry picked words are to be taken literally, maybe you and PaulSacramento should consult and then put together an explanation for why that is the case.

I think you are too full of yourself.

I agree, this person has no interest in rational discourse whatsoever, all they seem to be interested in is their bold assertions.

Not one of my questions was answered in her above post and I really think the mods should ban this person immediately as she has violated the forum rules on several occasions and has been warned.

She is just trolling us trying to get a bad reaction, I seriously think the whole board should cease any sort of communication with her, the only thing we can do is pray that she might see the light of truth.

Well I am not going to waste anymore time on this, I don't like giving up on people but in this situation I think going on with this is only perpetuating an extremely bad situation.

Now I am sure she will say we are persecuting her and that will validate her belief that she is right, but I think it takes the bigger people to walk away from madness.


Dan

[Mallz]

Not one of my questions was answered in her above post and I really think the mods should ban this person immediately as she has violated the forum rules on several occasions and has been warned

Seriously... Please listen mods. I, too, have read her tiresome, rude 'discussions'. I come here to learn and ask questions. Seeing someone like this being humored to the extent she has been is disappointing and frankly I loose interest in checking these forums when such closed-minded hateful people are allowed to run rampant. If I feel this way, others must. Lets keep these forums on track for the good they are created for: Intellectual, respectful discussions from those of various faiths or lack of in search for truth.

[neo-x]

ALTER2EGO -to- SON OF ALETHEIA:
Speak for yourself. I happen to believe that you are an atheist and that you don't care anything about any conversation where the Bible is concerned. In fact, you showed up earlier making derogatory comments about the New World Translation. So your sudden interest in the cherry picked words that were isolated from the context of several verses is suspicious, at best.


The only person that sees literal hellfire torment in those words are people who cherry pick words from entire verses and ignore everything else. That's exactly what PaulSacramento did. Whenever people isolate a few words from an entire verse and ignore everything else, it indicates they are not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Danieltwotwenty did the same thing with Jeremiah 23:24. When I showed Danieltwotwenty the context, he/she continued to argue that Jeremiah 23:24 means what he/she says it means. That is exactly the response I will get from PaulSacramento if I show him/her the context to the words that he/she cherry picked above. That's why I asked PaulSacramento to explain where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the entire verses (as opposed to a few words that PaulSacramento isolated).



Since you insist that the cherry picked words are to be taken literally, maybe you and PaulSacramento should consult and then put together an explanation for why that is the case.

I think you are too full of yourself.

I agree, this person has no interest in rational discourse whatsoever, all they seem to be interested in is their bold assertions.

Not one of my questions was answered in her above post and I really think the mods should ban this person immediately as she has violated the forum rules on several occasions and has been warned.

She is just trolling us trying to get a bad reaction, I seriously think the whole board should cease any sort of communication with her, the only thing we can do is pray that she might see the light of truth.

Well I am not going to waste anymore time on this, I don't like giving up on people but in this situation I think going on with this is only perpetuating an extremely bad situation.

Now I am sure she will say we are persecuting her and that will validate her belief that she is right, but I think it takes the bigger people to walk away from madness.


Dan

I haven't had the time to read all of what she posted in detail but that's because I get bored of BS pretty quickly.

She preaches a cult,
she has a holier than thou attitude,
she frequently use a patronizing tone,
use ad hominens,
does not answer questions,
does not answer specific posts,
refuse to read links,
does not follow forum rules
is disrespectful to the mods
has a constant problem accepting simple explanations,
does not understand trinity,
build straw men arguments,
hand waves, baits and obfuscates when cornered.
is a known trouble maker from other forums,
plus has shown a complete lack of theology and its nuances and a refusal to be corrected on any event.
does not seem to acknowledge the fact that she could be wrong, very wrong.

EDIT: Not to mention she called son of alethia, athiest with no basis behind it.

All signs of Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

[neo-x]

Not one of my questions was answered in her above post and I really think the mods should ban this person immediately as she has violated the forum rules on several occasions and has been warned

Seriously... Please listen mods. I, too, have read her tiresome, rude 'discussions'. I come here to learn and ask questions. Seeing someone like this being humored to the extent she has been is disappointing and frankly I loose interest in checking these forums when such closed-minded hateful people are allowed to run rampant. If I feel this way, others must. Lets keep these forums on track for the good they are created for: Intellectual, respectful discussions from those of various faiths or lack of in search for truth.

Mallz, you would be glad to know that the mods here are some of the best people you can find on any forum. I have been here since 2011 and they have always done their best to keep this place pretty neat and friendly. The only reason Alter has survived this long is a sign of forum's patience and friendliness and willing to accommodate people and this means a lot, because do that on other forums and you're kicked out before you can say your sorry. Alter is reaching her limit and I'm sure with her current attitude, will soon be over the limit.

So a bit patience you are in the right place.

[SonofAletheia]

ALTER2EGO -to- SON OF ALETHEIA:
Speak for yourself. I happen to believe that you are an atheist and that you don't care anything about any conversation where the Bible is concerned. In fact, you showed up earlier making derogatory comments about the New World Translation. So your sudden interest in the cherry picked words that were isolated from the context of several verses is suspicious, at best.
The only person that sees literal hellfire torment in those words are people who cherry pick words from entire verses and ignore everything else. That's exactly what PaulSacramento did. Whenever people isolate a few words from an entire verse and ignore everything else, it indicates they are not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).
Danieltwotwenty did the same thing with Jeremiah 23:24. When I showed Danieltwotwenty the context, he/she continued to argue that Jeremiah 23:24 means what he/she says it means. That is exactly the response I will get from PaulSacramento if I show him/her the context to the words that he/she cherry picked above. That's why I asked PaulSacramento to explain where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the entire verses (as opposed to a few words that PaulSacramento isolated).
Since you insist that the cherry picked words are to be taken literally, maybe you and PaulSacramento should consult and then put together an explanation for why that is the case.

Accusing me of atheism? In all candor, I haven't heard that accusation before. I wonder if it's because of my defense of evolution? Which, by the way, seems to be a discussion you walked away from.

I actually do care about what the Bible has to say. And yes, I did call out the New World Translation. I thought it was well known that it's a terrible translation that has been clearly tampered with by a cult. Just looking at the translators of the NWT and their knowledge of Greek is almost enough to trash the translation. Not to mention the numerous false prophecies of the Watchtower and some of it's bizarre beliefs.
Having studied the cult a fair amount and even meeting with a few members for a while, it seems like the religion is one of the best examples we have of a cult.

I'd like to hear what your cult has taught you about these verses though. You can start with the one in Matthew or the ones in Revelation. I know your rule about "four verses at a time" so I don't want to overload you here. But please, tell us what your teachers have told you about Hell.

[RickD]

Alter2Ego,

I'm going to step back from the discussion, and moderate.
With that, I need to point out what Danieltwotwenty was trying to say. He tried to show you how Jeremiah 23:24 shows God's omnipresence. Here's the verse:
24 “Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the Lord.
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.

Since the verse says that God fills the heavens and the earth, I believe that's where Daniel was showing God's omnipresence.

Alter2Ego, how do you interpret that part of the verse?

[Silvertusk]

Alter2Ego,

I'm going to step back from the discussion, and moderate.
With that, I need to point out what Danieltwotwenty was trying to say. He tried to show you how Jeremiah 23:24 shows God's omnipresence. Here's the verse:
24 “Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the Lord.
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.

Since the verse says that God fills the heavens and the earth, I believe that's where Daniel was showing God's omnipresence.

Alter2Ego, how do you interpret that part of the verse?

Also A2E Explain this as well

Psalm 139:7-12

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, ‘Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,’
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

[ClassicalTeacher]

I've walked away from this discussion as well. I like being here on this forum--and I like the people with whom I have had other discussions--even those with whom I disagree. But, the bottom line is that generally the people here have a respect and regard for others who may or may not agree with their position. That tells me that regardless of their position on certain topics, they are people of respect. That is not the case with alter. But, I'm not going to make any further comments about her or her posts. I leave her in the good hands of the mods and the other members of this good forum. God bless you all!

[PaulSacramento]

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

Instead of responding to my above request, PaulSacramento disappeared. He/she recently showed up in this thread again, just to complain to you that I would not accept what he/she claims is proof of literal hellfire torment in the verses.

Even though I am largely open to various views on Hell (is it more metaphorical or literal, is it purely separation from God or actual torture, views on annihilationism or universalism) it's your job to show that those verses are not talking about literal hellfire.

Any objective reader would conclude that it's literal hellfire (without an opposing argument which I'll gladly hear from you...?)
“eternal fire” “unquenchable fire” “shame and everlasting contempt” “the fire is not quenched” “torment” “fire” “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” “lake of burning sulfur” “tormented day and night forever and ever”
It's amazing how you read these words and conclude that you "don't see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment"

Quite correct and that is why anyone without "JW blinders" on can see that.
Also why it is pointless arguing with a person that has already made up their mind due to cultist influence.

Most of her issues would be answered with read a basic book in Christian theology (whether she agrees or not with the doctrines she would at least learn about them without the Bias she gets from "bible studies" that are controlled so that JW only learn what they are TOLD).

[PaulSacramento]

RE: Omnipresence.
If God is NOT omnipresent or at least has the choice to be such, then He is NOT God.

[RickD]

Guys and gals,

I just got done looking through all 40 pages of the thread on the RO website. Fwiw, anyone continuing this thread is wasting his time. A2E spent most of the thread complaining about people attacking her(they weren't). I think she just moved to the top of the JW martyr list.
It is a colossal waste of time attempting to debate or discuss this issue with A2E. But, for those of you who wish to continue beating your heads against a brick wall, I'll be here to moderate. And a small plug for Pete, he did a marvelous job in that thread in the RO forum.

[PeteSinCA]

Thanks, Rick. My long posts near the end were the ones I liked....something possibly informative and helpful.

[RickD]

Alter2Ego,

Since I'm moderating, I have two "rules" you must follow if you want to continue posting here.

1). You must post using the normal

system that was put in place here. No more

Alter2Ego -to- whomever quoting will be allowed.

And

2). You must answer these 2 questions before proceeding with anything else:

1. Do you believe that Jesus is God?
2. Do you believe that Jesus is holy?

Failure to follow my conditions will result in your post getting deleted.

[RickD]

Thanks, Rick. My long posts near the end were the ones I liked....something possibly informative and helpful.

Pete, that's one good thing that can come out of these kinds of threads. Others reading can get a better understanding of things such as the trinity. Those who refuse to see, will still be blind. But others who are open, will learn more about why JW is a cult, and why the doctrine of the trinity is backed by scripture.