Does God do anything about human pain and suffering
Does God do anything about human pain and suffering
Lets presume God exists for the sake of this argument. If you think he does do something about it, state what you think it is that he does. If you think he doesnt do anything about it, state why you think that is.
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Jac3510
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Re: Does God do anything about human pain and suffering
Of course He does something about suffering. In the big picture, He sent His Son to die on the cross and raise from the dead so that He can restore the world from its fallen state, which will ultimately happen when Christ returns (Rom 8:18-25).
On a case by case basis, there are times God intervenes and there are times He does not. Sometimes He does so in direct answer to prayers, sometimes He does so without any prayers of any kind (that we are aware of, anyway). Sometimes we pray and He says no. Sometimes there is no relief from suffering. God is not a machine whereby if you punch in the right input you get a particular result. He does what He does for His own reasons and we are by and large not privy to them.
At other times He does nothing to alleviate suffering. There is a wide range of reasons that could be the case. I note that there is no way to determine in any specific case what those reasons might not be because, again, we are not privy to His own reasons. But all the same, a range of general reasons apply in most cases. Reasons, then, He may not alleviate suffering in any case, either general or specific, include:
1. Free will -- sometimes we are in the situation we are in because we or someone else (or both) exercised our free will in a way that brought about undesirable effects. We suffer for those effects, but that's what happens when people misbehave;
2. Natural "evil" -- in order for human beings to be able to make rational decisions, we have to live in a world in which we can have a good idea about what the consequences of our decisions are. That, in turn, means that we have to live in a world that operates according to relatively consistent laws. If those laws changed willy-nilly, there would be no way to predict with any certainty the outcome of any given action, and therefore, we could make no meaningful choices. The flip side of that, however, is that sometimes we get "in the way" of how the world operates. We trip and fall, and because gravity works, we skin our knee. We work in the sun a long time, and because the sun emits some radiation, we get skin burns and possibly cancer. Because we live on a fault line and because geothermal pressure exists, sometimes there is an earthquake. When we get in the way of things, we can get bruised up.
3. "Tough love" -- from a biblical perspective, the reason we suffer at all is because of sin (see Gen 1-3; Rom 5:12-21; 8:18-25). If God alleviated ALL suffering, we would never see the results of our sin. Evil, by definition, is the absence of good, and God is good; evil, then, is the absence of God. When we kicked God out of this world, we by definition created suffering. Evil, then, has the positive effect of showing us that something is wrong, similar to how a headache shows us that something is wrong with our body and that we need medication.
Beyond all that, there is also a fundamental problem with the question itself as it relates to frame of reference. In the first place, there is absolutely no way to know what suffering has NOT happened because God intervened. Whenever we look at any given instance of suffering and say, "Why couldn't God have stopped that?" the assumption is "that" (whatever it is) is "bad enough" or "senseless enough" that it should have warranted God's intervention. But "bad enough" or "senseless enough" only make sense from an objective frame of reference. For all we know, God could be constantly preventing truly horrendous things from happening to us. Because they don't happen, we never know about it, and therefore we think the stuff that does happen is really bad. If, though, we had the objective frame and could see all that God stopped, we would be able to see that what He allows is within reason. For suppose God stopped any particular case of suffering as warranting His intervention. If that never happened, then we would not know we were subject to such danger in the first place, and therefore we would simply think that some other "lesser" evil was in fact a terrible evil that warranted divine intervention. Taken to its logical conclusion, the only place we end up is God preventing all suffering at all times, which is contrary to both logic and divine revelation (as discussed above).
On a case by case basis, there are times God intervenes and there are times He does not. Sometimes He does so in direct answer to prayers, sometimes He does so without any prayers of any kind (that we are aware of, anyway). Sometimes we pray and He says no. Sometimes there is no relief from suffering. God is not a machine whereby if you punch in the right input you get a particular result. He does what He does for His own reasons and we are by and large not privy to them.
At other times He does nothing to alleviate suffering. There is a wide range of reasons that could be the case. I note that there is no way to determine in any specific case what those reasons might not be because, again, we are not privy to His own reasons. But all the same, a range of general reasons apply in most cases. Reasons, then, He may not alleviate suffering in any case, either general or specific, include:
1. Free will -- sometimes we are in the situation we are in because we or someone else (or both) exercised our free will in a way that brought about undesirable effects. We suffer for those effects, but that's what happens when people misbehave;
2. Natural "evil" -- in order for human beings to be able to make rational decisions, we have to live in a world in which we can have a good idea about what the consequences of our decisions are. That, in turn, means that we have to live in a world that operates according to relatively consistent laws. If those laws changed willy-nilly, there would be no way to predict with any certainty the outcome of any given action, and therefore, we could make no meaningful choices. The flip side of that, however, is that sometimes we get "in the way" of how the world operates. We trip and fall, and because gravity works, we skin our knee. We work in the sun a long time, and because the sun emits some radiation, we get skin burns and possibly cancer. Because we live on a fault line and because geothermal pressure exists, sometimes there is an earthquake. When we get in the way of things, we can get bruised up.
3. "Tough love" -- from a biblical perspective, the reason we suffer at all is because of sin (see Gen 1-3; Rom 5:12-21; 8:18-25). If God alleviated ALL suffering, we would never see the results of our sin. Evil, by definition, is the absence of good, and God is good; evil, then, is the absence of God. When we kicked God out of this world, we by definition created suffering. Evil, then, has the positive effect of showing us that something is wrong, similar to how a headache shows us that something is wrong with our body and that we need medication.
Beyond all that, there is also a fundamental problem with the question itself as it relates to frame of reference. In the first place, there is absolutely no way to know what suffering has NOT happened because God intervened. Whenever we look at any given instance of suffering and say, "Why couldn't God have stopped that?" the assumption is "that" (whatever it is) is "bad enough" or "senseless enough" that it should have warranted God's intervention. But "bad enough" or "senseless enough" only make sense from an objective frame of reference. For all we know, God could be constantly preventing truly horrendous things from happening to us. Because they don't happen, we never know about it, and therefore we think the stuff that does happen is really bad. If, though, we had the objective frame and could see all that God stopped, we would be able to see that what He allows is within reason. For suppose God stopped any particular case of suffering as warranting His intervention. If that never happened, then we would not know we were subject to such danger in the first place, and therefore we would simply think that some other "lesser" evil was in fact a terrible evil that warranted divine intervention. Taken to its logical conclusion, the only place we end up is God preventing all suffering at all times, which is contrary to both logic and divine revelation (as discussed above).
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Does God do anything about human pain and suffering
Do we have a sticky for the problem of pain and suffering, if we don't we really shoul because this is a massive reoccurring theme.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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domokunrox
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Re: Does God do anything about human pain and suffering
I actually plan on writing about it in great detail for the board, so that pretty much you guys need to only redirect people there. Look forward to it.Danieltwotwenty wrote:Do we have a sticky for the problem of pain and suffering, if we don't we really shoul because this is a massive reoccurring theme.